Angeline
Wed, Nov-26-03, 19:43
This is a transcript of a debate on Atkins that appeared today on Crosswalk. I think the Atkins rep did a good job
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0311/26/cf.00.html
==========================================================
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, a group of physicians calling themselves Physicians For Responsible Medicine called a press conference to talk about the dangers and, in fact, even in some cases fatalities, from the Atkins diet.
Now, here's a spokesman for that group. I want you to listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. NEAL BARNARD, PHYSICIANS COMMITTEE FOR RESPONSIBLE MEDICINE: If we look at the nutrient profile, it's exactly the kind of profile you would expect to cause heart disease, to cause kidney disease. There's very little fiber in the Atkins diet. There's an astronomical amount of saturated fat and cholesterol. The protein content is far too high. That taxes the kidneys. It contributes to osteoporosis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, how do you respond to that?
DR. STUART TRAGER, CHAIRMAN, ATKINS PHYSICIANS COUNCIL: Sure.
Right now, we live in a country where 300,000 people are fighting an epidemic of obesity and not succeeding; 300,000 people are dying each year because of this obesity epidemic. We need to provide people with solutions that work. Neil Barnard is not a concerned physician. Neil Barnard is a vegan animal rights activist who is trying to use science to present his own point of view on how he thinks people should eat, to promote vegetarianism and his vegan agenda.
Science demands that people use the accurate, correct collection of data and present it in a way, in peer-review journals, that stands up and prevents bias like that we're seeing here. What he's talking about really doesn't apply. He's selling half-truths and trying to manipulate a situation to promote an agenda that, quite frankly, doesn't work for the American public.
We see people right now who have tried to fight their weight and manage their weight by reducing calories and by limiting their fat intake, and it's not working.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. Sorry to jump in, Doctor. I just wanted to get Mr. Ornish, Dr. Ornish's, reaction to that.
If it is true, as "The New York Times" says, 65 percent of Americans are fat, then obesity itself is a real health problem. And we know the Atkins diet works.
DR. DEAN ORNISH, DIRECTOR, PREVENTIVE MEDICINE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: Well, you're right.
CARLSON: It works because people say it works and it works because studies show it works. So why not recommend the Atkins diet?
ORNISH: Well, the Atkins diet is a way to lose weight. And I think one thing that we all agree on is that there really is an epidemic of obesity in this country.
But the goal for me is not just to lose weight. You want to lose weight with amphetamines or fen-phen. The goal is to lose weight in a way that's healthy. And what -- and I agree with Dr. Trager that science can help sort out what is true from what isn't, which is why I have spent the last 26 years of my life doing science published in the leading peer-review journals.
And what did we find? We found that the average person lost 25 pounds and kept half that weight off five years later. There is no long-term data on the Atkins diet. We found they lowered their LDL, or their bad cholesterol, by 40 percent. And we actually found that they were able to reverse heart disease in every way we can measure. The more they followed it, the longer they did it, the more reversal they showed.
And there have never been any studies looking at the effects of an Atkins diet on blood flow to your heart, except for one, which found that it actually got worse. Now, there's no mystery in how you lose weight. You burn more calories by exercise or you eat fewer calories. One thing that Dr. Trager and I, and Dr. Atkins, who I debated a number of times before he died, including here on CROSSFIRE, what we all agree on is that Americans eat way too many what are called simple carbs or refined carbohydrates.
And these are things like sugar, white flower, white rice. And you get a double whammy when you eat all these carbs. You get all these calories that don't fill you up, because you've removed all the fiber. And they get absorbed quickly, so they make your blood sugar zoom up. Your pancreas makes insulin. And the insulin not only lowers your blood sugar, but it causes you to convert those calories into fat. So we both agree on that.
Where we differ is where you go from there. And you don't go from simple carbs to pork rinds and bacon and sausage and butter and Brie. Those are not health foods, even though I would like to be able to tell you they are. You go from simple carbs to what are called whole foods, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, whole wheat flower, brown rice, soy products. Beans and fish and things like this are rich in fiber. The fiber fills you up before you get too many calories.
And it slows the absorption of the food, so you don't get that rapid rise in blood sugar.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Let me just make one last point and then I'll be quiet. The other reason people get too many calories is, they eat too much fat. And fat has nine calories per gram. And protein and carbs have only four. So when you eat less fat, you get fewer calories without having to eat less food.
So an optimal diet is low in simple carbs, low in fat, high in complex carbs, and high in the fruits and vegetables and grains and beans, that are low in the substances that cause you to get sick and high in at least 1,000 others that are protective.
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, it sounds like common sense. And I have to say, your diet sounds rather counterintuitive. Tell me -- try to persuade me why a big old slab of bacon and a cheeseburger are actually better for me than the whole foods that Dr. Ornish was talking about.
TRAGER: Sure.
The biggest problem is that people have been unable to follow the diet that Dr. Ornish is talking about. And, in fact, they don't need to. What we're finding in good research from prestigious universities, be it Duke, Tufts, Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania, studies that are funded by independent sources like the National Institute of Health or the American Heart Association, that following a diet that reduces carbohydrates in fact not only helps people lose weight, but improves their cardiac risk factors.
What Dr. Ornish doesn't tell you, just another one of the half- truths, is that, when people go on a very low-fat diet, like he recommends and like Dr. Barnard recommends, triglycerides, an independent risk factor for heart disease, go up, and HDL, the good cholesterol, goes down.
(CROSSTALK)
I would expect more from Dr. Ornish than to tell the half-truths.
ORNISH: Stuart, give me a break.
TRAGER: No, listen. (CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: Look, we can tell half-truths about the Fleming (ph) study all you would like.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Let me tell you about the half-truths.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
TRAGER: When we talk about a high-fat diet, not the Atkins diet, we're telling half-truths. And we need to see more. We need to expect more from each other, Dean, than to tell half-truths and to mislead people.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Excuse me, Doctor.
Dr. Ornish, we're almost out of time. I just want to ask you a quick question, though.
ORNISH: Sure.
CARLSON: You seem to advocate a pretty radical vegetarian diet. And that -- not only does meat make...
ORNISH: No. No.
CARLSON: Oh, you don't advocate a vegetarian diet?
ORNISH: For reversing heart disease, that's what it takes.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Wait. But hold it. My question is, aren't people designed to eat meat?
ORNISH: Wait a minute.
TRAGER: People do eat meat. And they want to eat meat.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Stuart, let me finish here.
We have proven that heart disease is reversible using the state- of-the-art measures, published in "JAMA," "Circulation," "Lancet," "New England Journal." No one has ever done a study of Atkins showing that it can reverse heart disease. So keep me a break when we're talking about half-truths.
TRAGER: And we're not claiming to reduce heart disease, Dean. ORNISH: When you're talking about cardiac risk...
TRAGER: We're claiming to be able to allow people to lose weight and lower their established risk factors.
(CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: Since this has been shown in real, credible studies, Dean, we need to admit it.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: We have done real, credible studies. And we have published them. And we've found
(CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: And you know what? And it may be that there's no one right way to eat for everyone.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry to have to cut it off.
Stuart Trager, Dr. Dean Ornish out in San Francisco, thank you very much. We're going to have to go to a break and probably sell a bunch of junk food to our audience via commercials.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: But thank you very much, both, gentlemen, for your advice on the diets.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thanks, guys
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0311/26/cf.00.html
==========================================================
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, a group of physicians calling themselves Physicians For Responsible Medicine called a press conference to talk about the dangers and, in fact, even in some cases fatalities, from the Atkins diet.
Now, here's a spokesman for that group. I want you to listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. NEAL BARNARD, PHYSICIANS COMMITTEE FOR RESPONSIBLE MEDICINE: If we look at the nutrient profile, it's exactly the kind of profile you would expect to cause heart disease, to cause kidney disease. There's very little fiber in the Atkins diet. There's an astronomical amount of saturated fat and cholesterol. The protein content is far too high. That taxes the kidneys. It contributes to osteoporosis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, how do you respond to that?
DR. STUART TRAGER, CHAIRMAN, ATKINS PHYSICIANS COUNCIL: Sure.
Right now, we live in a country where 300,000 people are fighting an epidemic of obesity and not succeeding; 300,000 people are dying each year because of this obesity epidemic. We need to provide people with solutions that work. Neil Barnard is not a concerned physician. Neil Barnard is a vegan animal rights activist who is trying to use science to present his own point of view on how he thinks people should eat, to promote vegetarianism and his vegan agenda.
Science demands that people use the accurate, correct collection of data and present it in a way, in peer-review journals, that stands up and prevents bias like that we're seeing here. What he's talking about really doesn't apply. He's selling half-truths and trying to manipulate a situation to promote an agenda that, quite frankly, doesn't work for the American public.
We see people right now who have tried to fight their weight and manage their weight by reducing calories and by limiting their fat intake, and it's not working.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. Sorry to jump in, Doctor. I just wanted to get Mr. Ornish, Dr. Ornish's, reaction to that.
If it is true, as "The New York Times" says, 65 percent of Americans are fat, then obesity itself is a real health problem. And we know the Atkins diet works.
DR. DEAN ORNISH, DIRECTOR, PREVENTIVE MEDICINE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: Well, you're right.
CARLSON: It works because people say it works and it works because studies show it works. So why not recommend the Atkins diet?
ORNISH: Well, the Atkins diet is a way to lose weight. And I think one thing that we all agree on is that there really is an epidemic of obesity in this country.
But the goal for me is not just to lose weight. You want to lose weight with amphetamines or fen-phen. The goal is to lose weight in a way that's healthy. And what -- and I agree with Dr. Trager that science can help sort out what is true from what isn't, which is why I have spent the last 26 years of my life doing science published in the leading peer-review journals.
And what did we find? We found that the average person lost 25 pounds and kept half that weight off five years later. There is no long-term data on the Atkins diet. We found they lowered their LDL, or their bad cholesterol, by 40 percent. And we actually found that they were able to reverse heart disease in every way we can measure. The more they followed it, the longer they did it, the more reversal they showed.
And there have never been any studies looking at the effects of an Atkins diet on blood flow to your heart, except for one, which found that it actually got worse. Now, there's no mystery in how you lose weight. You burn more calories by exercise or you eat fewer calories. One thing that Dr. Trager and I, and Dr. Atkins, who I debated a number of times before he died, including here on CROSSFIRE, what we all agree on is that Americans eat way too many what are called simple carbs or refined carbohydrates.
And these are things like sugar, white flower, white rice. And you get a double whammy when you eat all these carbs. You get all these calories that don't fill you up, because you've removed all the fiber. And they get absorbed quickly, so they make your blood sugar zoom up. Your pancreas makes insulin. And the insulin not only lowers your blood sugar, but it causes you to convert those calories into fat. So we both agree on that.
Where we differ is where you go from there. And you don't go from simple carbs to pork rinds and bacon and sausage and butter and Brie. Those are not health foods, even though I would like to be able to tell you they are. You go from simple carbs to what are called whole foods, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, whole wheat flower, brown rice, soy products. Beans and fish and things like this are rich in fiber. The fiber fills you up before you get too many calories.
And it slows the absorption of the food, so you don't get that rapid rise in blood sugar.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Let me just make one last point and then I'll be quiet. The other reason people get too many calories is, they eat too much fat. And fat has nine calories per gram. And protein and carbs have only four. So when you eat less fat, you get fewer calories without having to eat less food.
So an optimal diet is low in simple carbs, low in fat, high in complex carbs, and high in the fruits and vegetables and grains and beans, that are low in the substances that cause you to get sick and high in at least 1,000 others that are protective.
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, it sounds like common sense. And I have to say, your diet sounds rather counterintuitive. Tell me -- try to persuade me why a big old slab of bacon and a cheeseburger are actually better for me than the whole foods that Dr. Ornish was talking about.
TRAGER: Sure.
The biggest problem is that people have been unable to follow the diet that Dr. Ornish is talking about. And, in fact, they don't need to. What we're finding in good research from prestigious universities, be it Duke, Tufts, Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania, studies that are funded by independent sources like the National Institute of Health or the American Heart Association, that following a diet that reduces carbohydrates in fact not only helps people lose weight, but improves their cardiac risk factors.
What Dr. Ornish doesn't tell you, just another one of the half- truths, is that, when people go on a very low-fat diet, like he recommends and like Dr. Barnard recommends, triglycerides, an independent risk factor for heart disease, go up, and HDL, the good cholesterol, goes down.
(CROSSTALK)
I would expect more from Dr. Ornish than to tell the half-truths.
ORNISH: Stuart, give me a break.
TRAGER: No, listen. (CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: Look, we can tell half-truths about the Fleming (ph) study all you would like.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Let me tell you about the half-truths.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
TRAGER: When we talk about a high-fat diet, not the Atkins diet, we're telling half-truths. And we need to see more. We need to expect more from each other, Dean, than to tell half-truths and to mislead people.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Excuse me, Doctor.
Dr. Ornish, we're almost out of time. I just want to ask you a quick question, though.
ORNISH: Sure.
CARLSON: You seem to advocate a pretty radical vegetarian diet. And that -- not only does meat make...
ORNISH: No. No.
CARLSON: Oh, you don't advocate a vegetarian diet?
ORNISH: For reversing heart disease, that's what it takes.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Wait. But hold it. My question is, aren't people designed to eat meat?
ORNISH: Wait a minute.
TRAGER: People do eat meat. And they want to eat meat.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Stuart, let me finish here.
We have proven that heart disease is reversible using the state- of-the-art measures, published in "JAMA," "Circulation," "Lancet," "New England Journal." No one has ever done a study of Atkins showing that it can reverse heart disease. So keep me a break when we're talking about half-truths.
TRAGER: And we're not claiming to reduce heart disease, Dean. ORNISH: When you're talking about cardiac risk...
TRAGER: We're claiming to be able to allow people to lose weight and lower their established risk factors.
(CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: Since this has been shown in real, credible studies, Dean, we need to admit it.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: We have done real, credible studies. And we have published them. And we've found
(CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: And you know what? And it may be that there's no one right way to eat for everyone.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry to have to cut it off.
Stuart Trager, Dr. Dean Ornish out in San Francisco, thank you very much. We're going to have to go to a break and probably sell a bunch of junk food to our audience via commercials.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: But thank you very much, both, gentlemen, for your advice on the diets.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thanks, guys