Atkins Diet & Hair Loss

[Jo-Ann]

Hi All, I have been on the Atkins diet since August. This is
my second time around with this diet. I lost alot of weight
the first time a few years ago only to gain it back. (of
course-I am a compulsive overeater from O.A.) I have lost over
50 pounds now-ketosis has stopped because I am eating too many
nuts and too much home made Cheese Cake. I am really having a
very difficult time now. Aside from this-I am also losing a
lot of hair. Every time I wash, brush or comb my hair, large
amounts come out. This has happened to me once before when I
had suffered from Anorexia.. Has anyone every heard of this
problem or experiencing it? I am losing the will to stay on
low carb. I have 10 more pounds to go. I have NEVER made
maintenance weight yet. Truthfully-I don't even know how to go
on that part of the program. I read and re-read it in Atkins'
book and I'm still petrified of it. Any advice or
encouragement will be greatly appreciated! Thank You Jo-Ann

--
Invalid address-Please post request to e-mail me.

[Rosie Read]

jo ann,

losing the carbs/sugar in your daily WOE is a great idea, it
really helped me with the constant "addictive" cravings and
overeating too.

i would suggest that you LOSE the recipe for the cheesecakes
and try to increase your diet with healthy fruits and veggies.
take a good multivitamin, and FISH OIL..................if the
hair loss persists, please talk to your doctor, and have a
"hormone" check up. just my opinion!

--
read and post daily, it works! rosie

If you don't like life, its the way you're livin' A little
less takin', a bit more givin'; A little less hatin', a little
more lovin'; A little more helpin', not o much shovin'; A
little more smilin', not so much strife, And soon you will be
in love with life. ........................... j.w.t. meehan

"Jo-Ann" <RiverRun@ mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:fYPpb.7408$9M3.3695@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Hi All, I have been on the Atkins diet since August. This is
> my second time
around
> with this diet. I lost alot of weight the first time a few
> years ago
only to
> gain it back. (of course-I am a compulsive overeater from
> O.A.) I have lost over 50 pounds now-ketosis has stopped
> because I am eating
too
> many nuts and too much home made Cheese Cake. I am really
> having a
very
> difficult time now. Aside from this-I am also losing a lot
> of hair. Every time I wash,
brush or
> comb my hair, large amounts come out. This has happened
> to me once
before
> when I had suffered from Anorexia.. Has anyone every heard
> of this problem or experiencing it? I am losing the will to
> stay on low carb. I have 10 more pounds to
go. I
> have NEVER made maintenance weight yet. Truthfully-I don't
> even know
how to
> go on that part of the program. I read and re-read it in
> Atkins' book
and
> I'm still petrified of it. Any advice or encouragement will
> be greatly appreciated! Thank You Jo-Ann
>
> --
> Invalid address-Please post request to e-mail me.

[Frenchy]

"Jo-Ann" <RiverRun@ mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:fYPpb.7408$9M3.3695@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Hi All, I have been on the Atkins diet since August. This is
> my second time around with this diet. I lost alot of weight
> the first time a few years ago only to gain it back. (of
> course-I am a compulsive overeater from O.A.) I have lost
> over 50 pounds now-ketosis has stopped because I am eating
> too many nuts and too much home made Cheese Cake. I am
> really having a very difficult time now. Aside from this-I
> am also losing a lot of hair. Every time I wash, brush or
> comb my hair, large amounts come out. This has happened to
> me once before when I had suffered from Anorexia.. Has
> anyone every heard of this problem or experiencing it? I am
> losing the will to stay on low carb. I have 10 more pounds
> to go. I have NEVER made maintenance weight yet.
> Truthfully-I don't even know how to go on that part of the
> program. I read and re-read it in Atkins' book and I'm still
> petrified of it. Any advice or encouragement will be greatly
> appreciated! Thank You Jo-Ann
>

Have U been tested for Hypothyroidism? Doctor needs to do a
full blood work-up, TSH, Free T3 and T4 as well as Antibodies.

Frenchy

[Jwh]

I experienced the same thing when I hit the 35-40 lb loss
mark. I felt good because I lost all that weight but I was
scared that I was going to go bald... So I immedieately
started taking better care of my hair, stopped heat styling,
stopped wearing a ponytail and started using hot oil
treatments every week. My hair was coming out in clumps
before this my scalp was getting more and more visible. This
was back in July. It is much much thicker now. Also are you
using a lot of Aspartame? I read somewhere that this may
potentially cause hair loss. Don't really know if that can
actually be or not, it is just something I read while
researching the safety of Nutrasweet....... which I then
determined that anythink sweetened with it was not for me and
it may do more harm than good. I also made sure that I took a
good multivitamin and I started adding berries and fruits and
whole grains (in moderation ) to my diet. I had no ill
effects. I am still losing weight. My hair stopped falling
out, the shower drain is no longer clogged, so my husband is
happy. Hope this helps you.

Amy Jo
224.5/171.5/160 start March 10, 2003

"Jo-Ann" <RiverRun@ mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:fYPpb.7408$9M3.3695@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Hi All, I have been on the Atkins diet since August. This is
> my second time around with this diet. I lost alot of weight
> the first time a few years ago only
to
> gain it back. (of course-I am a compulsive overeater from
> O.A.) I have lost over 50 pounds now-ketosis has stopped
> because I am eating too many nuts and too much home made
> Cheese Cake. I am really having a very difficult time now.
> Aside from this-I am also losing a lot of hair. Every time I
> wash, brush
or
> comb my hair, large amounts come out. This has happened to
> me once before when I had suffered from Anorexia.. Has
> anyone every heard of this problem or experiencing it? I am
> losing the will to stay on low carb. I have 10 more pounds
> to go. I have NEVER made maintenance weight yet.
> Truthfully-I don't even know how
to
> go on that part of the program. I read and re-read it in
> Atkins' book and I'm still petrified of it. Any advice or
> encouragement will be greatly appreciated! Thank You Jo-Ann
>
> --
> Invalid address-Please post request to e-mail me.

[Anne]

Jo-Ann:

Someone else suggested that your doc check your thyroid
levels, and I second that idea. My hair fell out quite
dramatically when my thryoid went hypo- a few summers ago. I
now take daily Synthroid tablets to compensate for this.

Also, I don't know your age, but during perimenopause (the
years leading up to menopause), fluctuating hormone levels can
do a number on your hair and skin. Most menopausal women do
experience some thinning of hair simply because of decreases
in female hormones.

About your difficulty in staying on Atkins:

I'm SO sympathetic. This isn't easy for many of us who are
what I call "natural eaters." :-) And I don't mean "eaters of
natural food" -- LOL. For us, eating is fun, we love it, we
enjoy the sweet and starchy tastes of foods that aren't good
for us, often in large quantities. It's quite a loss to let go
of this source of pleasure in the long run.

Right now, as I continue trying to lose weight, I'm trying to
think of sugars as poison. This is almost literally true
since for me, overconsumption of carbs and continued
overweight most likely will lead to diabetes, given my family
and gestational history.

If all else fails to keep you on your program: A friend of
mine who lost and has kept off (for 2.5 years) 90 pounds
declared -- even when actively dieting to lose -- that every
Saturday night was "no holds barred" night. She would eat a
big cheeseburger (on a roll), some fries, and maybe a dish of
ice cream or a few Snickers for dessert. But that was it:
after Saturday night it was back to her weight-loss regimen
for the rest of the week. If you are getting too depressed and
discouraged, maybe this is one idea for you to try. It makes
*me* nervous because it's so risky for me to eat stuff like
that (without getting off-track for a long time), but it
worked great for my friend and continues to do so. You might
lose a bit slower, but perhaps with less angst.

Good luck!

- Anne

[Jo-Ann]

Thank You All!! who responded. I will ask the doctor about a
thyroid test and stop using heat on my hair. My hair has
always been very thick and it's naturally curly. I wear it
short because of the curl. Gee-I hope this stops-I am getting
very concerned now. I'll keep you posted and thank you
again!!!! Jo-Ann --Invalid address-Please post request to
e-mail me.

"Jo-Ann" <RiverRun@ mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:fYPpb.7408$9M3.3695@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Hi All, I have been on the Atkins diet since August. This is
> my second time around with this diet. I lost alot of weight
> the first time a few years ago only
to
> gain it back. (of course-I am a compulsive overeater from
> O.A.) I have lost over 50 pounds now-ketosis has stopped
> because I am eating too many nuts and too much home made
> Cheese Cake. I am really having a very difficult time now.
> Aside from this-I am also losing a lot of hair. Every time I
> wash, brush
or
> comb my hair, large amounts come out. This has happened to
> me once before when I had suffered from Anorexia.. Has
> anyone every heard of this problem or experiencing it? I am
> losing the will to stay on low carb. I have 10 more pounds
> to go. I have NEVER made maintenance weight yet.
> Truthfully-I don't even know how
to
> go on that part of the program. I read and re-read it in
> Atkins' book and I'm still petrified of it. Any advice or
> encouragement will be greatly appreciated! Thank You Jo-Ann
>
> --
> Invalid address-Please post request to e-mail me.

[Brenda]

"Jo-Ann" <RiverRun@ mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<fY-
Ppb.7408$9M3.3695@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> Hi All, I have been on the Atkins diet since August. This is
> my second time around with this diet. I lost alot of weight
> the first time a few years ago only to gain it back. (of
> course-I am a compulsive overeater from O.A.) I have lost
> over 50 pounds now-ketosis has stopped because I am eating
> too many nuts and too much home made Cheese Cake. I am
> really having a very difficult time now. Aside from this-I
> am also losing a lot of hair. Every time I wash, brush or
> comb my hair, large amounts come out. This has happened to
> me once before when I had suffered from Anorexia.. Has
> anyone every heard of this problem or experiencing it? I am
> losing the will to stay on low carb. I have 10 more pounds
> to go. I have NEVER made maintenance weight yet.
> Truthfully-I don't even know how to go on that part of the
> program. I read and re-read it in Atkins' book and I'm still
> petrified of it. Any advice or encouragement will be greatly
> appreciated! Thank You Jo-Ann

Hello, I am new to the group but have been viewing for months
now and really enjoy this sight. I finally had to jump board
when I seen this message. I to have just gotten over such a
hair loss. It was exactly as described. Everytime I washed my
hair, it was comming outin handsful and again when I would
brush it. I have very thick hair to begin with so loosing this
much hair wasn't to bad yet, but it wasn't stopping. We'll
previous to this I had purchased a product off t.v. Straight
to the Max. two to three weeks later I noticed the hair loss,
I called the company to find out what I could. They assured me
that it could not be due to their product, their whole
business is hair and hair products. The manager suggested that
I see the Dr. about a throid check. So I did seeing that my
hair is now becomming thin. The test came back fine, Dr.
suggested I take a multivitimin with iron and if its not
better in 6 weeks to come back. It has seem to stopp now, just
in time. Everyone kept asking if I changed my diet, and really
I hadn't, yes I am on the low carb, but I do cheat and have
been off again and on again for ever and this never happened.
So I'm not really sure what to add this up to but thought I
would share. Oh also the DR. did ask if I was under any stress
and that could contribute to it.

[Idg]

"Anne" <hennypennynospam@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3FA7FB6B.A65EE534@cox.net...
> Jo-Ann:
>
> Someone else suggested that your doc check your thyroid
> levels, and I
second
> that idea. My hair fell out quite dramatically when my
> thryoid went hypo-
a few
> summers ago. I now take daily Synthroid tablets to
> compensate for this.
>
> Also, I don't know your age, but during perimenopause (the
> years leading
up to
> menopause), fluctuating hormone levels can do a number on
> your hair and
skin.
> Most menopausal women do experience some thinning of hair
> simply because
of
> decreases in female hormones.
>
> About your difficulty in staying on Atkins:
>
> I'm SO sympathetic. This isn't easy for many of us who are
> what I call
"natural
> eaters." :-) And I don't mean "eaters of natural food" --
> LOL. For us, eating is fun, we love it, we enjoy the sweet
> and starchy tastes of foods
that
> aren't good for us, often in large quantities. It's quite a
> loss to let go
of
> this source of pleasure in the long run.
>
> Right now, as I continue trying to lose weight, I'm trying
> to think of
sugars
> as poison. This is almost literally true since for me,
> overconsumption of
carbs
> and continued overweight most likely will lead to diabetes,
> given my
family and
> gestational history.
>
> If all else fails to keep you on your program: A friend of
> mine who lost
and
> has kept off (for 2.5 years) 90 pounds declared -- even when
> actively
dieting
> to lose -- that every Saturday night was "no holds barred"
> night. She
would eat
> a big cheeseburger (on a roll), some fries, and maybe a dish
> of ice cream
or a
> few Snickers for dessert. But that was it: after Saturday
> night it was
back to
> her weight-loss regimen for the rest of the week. If you are
> getting too depressed and discouraged, maybe this is one
> idea for you to try. It makes
*me*
> nervous because it's so risky for me to eat stuff like that
> (without
getting
> off-track for a long time), but it worked great for my
> friend and
continues to
> do so. You might lose a bit slower, but perhaps with
> less angst.
>
> Good luck!
>
> - Anne
>

Hi Jo-Anne,

I tried to email you but it bounced back so I am posting this.

my hair is also falling dramatically in the last few years but
I don't think it's due to doing LC. what kind of hair do you
have? I have always had thick but fine textured hair and
apparently hair that fine tends to break faster from
mistreatment. do you blow dry? stop. or do it less times a
week at a lower heat setting. and once a week, put some
coconut oil (or olive oil) in a mug and heat it up. then
gently message it into your roots and hair for a few hours,
preferably overnight. then wash it off with a good clarifying
shampoo. and always use conditioner on the ends. and don't
stress out over
it. that's worse. :)

I strongly agree with the poster who suggested getting your
thyroids checked. I am having my thyroid hormones checked
(because I noticed some symptoms) and it turned out -- in the
intro tests -- that I seem to be slightly hypothyroid.
apparently a lot of women are hypothyroid without knowing it.
more now because last year, the normal range was narrowed to
.3 -- 3.3. and the optimum number is supposed to be between 1
and 2. before 2003, the range used to be between 0.3 and 5.5
or something like that.

and I agree with Anne. I am also a "natural eater" and LC-ing
(strict LC) is hard for me too. Plus I am Indian and we make
those wonderful daals (lentils), those scrumptious rice
dishes, and the naans and the chapattis. and Indian sweets are
just out of this world. though some of them are too sweet for
me. anyway, you should have seen my mom's face when I first
told her I don't want to eat the basmati rice and the
potatoes, just the fish!

I am not diabetic and I have never been more than 15-20 pounds
over my ideal weight. but I have family history of high
cholesterol and high blood pressure. And I decided this year
that I would eat less of the sweets and the starches that I
(and my family) love so much, and more of the green veggies
and lean protein. in the long run, I think it is healthier for
us all. I am trying to get my mom and dad to do the same. My
brother won't even listen. but I am working on him.

I also do a cheat day a week. if I have an invitation
somewhere or I invite friends to my place -- I make and eat
whatever is there. BUT -- I exercise portion control. or one
day a week I indulge my weakness for chocolate and some ice
cream. or a delish Indian savoury dish called bhel puri made
with puffed rice and tamarind sauce. yum.

see, with some of us, unless there needs to be a medically
urgent reason not to cheat -- a little bit of laxity is good
for the soul in the long run as well. but I don't think this
is the right thing for every LC-er to do.

good luck and send me email if you want.

indrani.

[Duane Stor]

Hair loss can be triggered by sudden hormonal changes in the
body, hence the reason why many pregnant women lose some hair
after they deliver (my sister lost a lot).. Losing a lot of
weight in a short amount of time can cause big hormonal
shifts. If it slows down in a week or two, chances are this is
what happened.

[Toby]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:53:47 GMT, "Jo-Ann" <RiverRun@
mindspring.com> wrote:

>Aside from this-I am also losing a lot of hair. Every time I
>wash, brush or comb my hair, large amounts come out. This has
>happened to me once before when I had suffered from
>Anorexia.. Has anyone every heard of this problem or
>experiencing it?

yup, about 30 pounds in, I guess. And unlike Amy Jo, I did
nothing about it, and after a while -- couple of months?
longer? it came back as it always was.

But I'm stuck where I am and it's driving me nuts. I
guess I have to get serious and count carbs vigorously
again for a bit.

toby.

170/137/125 august 2002

[Icrazyhors]

> I am losing the will to stay on low carb. I have 10 more
> pounds to go. I have NEVER made maintenance weight yet.
> Truthfully-I don't even know how to go on that part of the
> program. I read and re-read it in Atkins' book and I'm still
> petrified of it.

Hair loss is normal for anyone who's lost a significant amount
of weight -- especially on lowcarb because of its effect on
thyroid metabolism. When your hair starts falling out, what's
happening is a problem with T4 (thyroid) uptake. It means
you're at a very, very strong setpoint.

It's possible you don't really have ten more pounds to go. A
lot of people get to the last ten and realize that what they
would have to go through to get through that last setpoint
isn't worth the aggravation, not to mention it might be hard
to keep off.

In the meantime, add extra vitamin b and magnesium to support
your thyroid , and start bringing your carbs up. Wherever you
are, add 20 or 30 carbs to that for a few days and the hair
loss will stop.

If you have a little extra cash and you're really concerned
about it, try an ayurvedic supplement called guggul. That
always does the trick where other protocols have failed.

G'luck!

c

On the other hand if it all fell out that's a couple pounds
gone right there.

[Revek]

"Brenda" <bmeehan1970@excite.com> wrote in message
news:acddeaf2.0311041603.3de3c197@posting.google.com...
> "Jo-Ann" <RiverRun@ mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:<fYPpb.7408$9M3.3695@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> > Aside from this-I am also losing a lot of hair. Every time
> > I wash,
brush or
> > comb my hair, large amounts come out. This has happened to
> > me once
before
> > when I had suffered from Anorexia.. Has anyone every heard
> > of this problem or experiencing it?

It has seem to stopp now, just
> in time. Everyone kept asking if I changed my diet, and
> really I hadn't, yes I am on the low carb, but I do cheat
> and have been off again and on again for ever and this never
> happened. So I'm not
really
> sure what to add this up to but thought I would share. Oh
> also the
DR.
> did ask if I was under any stress and that could
> contribute to it.

Hair loss can often be caused by stress. Stress from work,
stress because of a new diet, stress from lack of sleep, an
illness (even a minor one), etc. Hair grows in cycles, and the
effect of the stress can take up to three months to show up as
hair loss, and usually will right itself again by the next
cycle. If you've been lowcarbing for less than three months,
then it was probably not the diet that triggered the loss. If
you think it might have been the diet, rest assured that it's
not a lack of nutrients, but merely *change* itself that would
trigger it, and if you do not have incipient thyroid, or other
serious trouble, will probably right itself soon. If it
doesn't, see your doctor.

revek

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG
anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.536 /
Virus Database: 331 - Release Date: 11/3/2003

[Jo-Ann]

Yes-I had been under a tremendous amount of stress since last
August. In fact, I had a breakdown from stopping a certain
medication without asking my doctor and being weaned off of
it. Maybe that did it because the stress was more than I
could handle and I wound up in a hospital for a week. I will
try taking iron with the multi vitamin /mineral supplement I
take daily. You all are so kind and I thank you so much for
your input. Jo-Ann -- Invalid address-Please post request to
e-mail me.

"revek" <tanirevek@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bo9lf1$1b0e8s$1@ID-190183.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "Brenda" <bmeehan1970@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:acddeaf2.0311041603.3de3c197@posting.google.com...
> > "Jo-Ann" <RiverRun@ mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:<fYPpb.7408$9M3.3695@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink-
> .net>...
> > > Aside from this-I am also losing a lot of hair. Every
> > > time I wash,
> brush or
> > > comb my hair, large amounts come out. This has happened
> > > to me once
> before
> > > when I had suffered from Anorexia.. Has anyone every
> > > heard of this problem or experiencing it?
>
>
> It has seem to stopp now, just
> > in time. Everyone kept asking if I changed my diet, and
> > really I hadn't, yes I am on the low carb, but I do cheat
> > and have been off again and on again for ever and this
> > never happened. So I'm not
> really
> > sure what to add this up to but thought I would share. Oh
> > also the
> DR.
> > did ask if I was under any stress and that could
> > contribute to it.
>
> Hair loss can often be caused by stress. Stress from work,
> stress because of a new diet, stress from lack of sleep, an
> illness (even a minor one), etc. Hair grows in cycles, and
> the effect of the stress can take up to three months to show
> up as hair loss, and usually will right itself again by the
> next cycle. If you've been lowcarbing for less than three
> months, then it was probably not the diet that triggered the
> loss. If you think it might have been the diet, rest assured
> that it's not a lack of nutrients, but merely *change*
> itself that would trigger it, and if you do not have
> incipient thyroid, or other serious trouble, will probably
> right itself soon. If it doesn't, see your doctor.
>
> revek
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG
> anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.536
> / Virus Database: 331 - Release Date: 11/3/2003

[Yoda]

Good point Rosie!

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v0Qpb.1337$j91.1050@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> jo ann,
>
> losing the carbs/sugar in your daily WOE is a great idea, it
> really helped me with the constant "addictive" cravings and
> overeating too.
>
> i would suggest that you LOSE the recipe for the cheesecakes
> and try to increase your diet with healthy fruits and
> veggies. take a good multivitamin, and FISH
> OIL..................if the hair loss persists, please talk
> to your doctor, and have a "hormone" check up. just my
> opinion!
>
> --
> read and post daily, it works! rosie

Good point, Rosie -

There is much more to "doing Atkins" than just eating low-carb
food; it's a planned regimen that includes recommeded
nutritional supplements. Usually when somebody says that
they're "on the Atkins diet" I assume that they are following
his book and balacing their diet with plenty of vegetables,
vitamins, nutrients and essential oils. I forget that some
people who don't read his book(s) thoroughly may miss the
all-important nutional supplement aspect. Or some just assume
that cutting back on carbs means that they are following the
Atkins plan. Lack of certain vitamins and nutrients can
certainly cause all kinds of odd problems, including hair
loss! This happened to the Pilgrims on the Mayflower; they had
hair loss, rickets and beri-beri by the time they got to
America from surviving for weeks just on their beef jerky!
--
Peter website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

[Doug Freyb]

Jo-Ann wrote:
>
> I have been on the Atkins diet since August.

So you are a year in. You know your CCLL and many details
about food intolerances.

> I have lost over 50 pounds now

And you are very successfull in that year.

> Aside from this-I am also losing a lot of hair. Every time I
> wash, brush or comb my hair, large amounts come out. This
> has happened to me once before when I had suffered from
> Anorexia.. Has anyone every heard of this problem or
> experiencing it?

It is common 6 months in, so you're actually behind schedule.
The good news is it generally grows back better in a couple of
months. As you discovered before, it is *not* a result of "low
carbing". It is a result of losing a lot of weight no matter
how you do it.

> I am losing the will to stay on low carb. I have 10 more
> pounds to go.

No surprise since you listed compulsive overeating and
anorexia in your history. You have a history of emtional
eating issues and now that you have real long term success
your emotions are kicking in trying to sabotage you. Fight
it! You earned your success, keep it. Do NOT allow your
history to cause you to quit and gain it all back as you have
in the past.

> I have NEVER made maintenance weight yet. Truthfully-I don't
> even know how to go on that part of the program. I read and
> re-read it in Atkins' book and

Dr A's explanation leaves much to be desired. Many are
confused by his description of OWL and he takes less than half
the space to describe maintenance. Who could expect anything
but confusion by folks approaching maintenance? Especially
among folks with emotional issues that drive them away from
real success.

So step back and view it like the beginning of OWL. At the
start of OWL you followed the weekly schedule until you fell
out of ketosis for a week to find your CCLL. Then you cruised
below your CCLL to lose.

Now you'll be deliberately out of ketosis on a weekly
scheduled increase to find your CCLM. Ketosis made it really
easy to find your
CCLL. In ketosis under CCLL, out of ketosis over CCLL. But to
find your CCLM try using cravings. Keep increasing
until carb based cravings turn on. THen your CCLM is
5-10 under that level. Maintenance is staying between
your CCLL and CCLM until you decide to gain it all
back. Try to make that forever.

> I'm still petrified of it.

Sure. History of emotional issues driving you away from real
success, a phase of the plan that is poorly documented, the
prospect of it just going on and on. Even though you're
already successfull.

> Any advice or encouragement will be greatly appreciated!

You've done well so far. Keep with it.

[Jenny]

"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7960d3ee.0311061340.68163bee@posting.google.com...
>
> So step back and view it like the beginning of OWL. At the
> start of OWL you followed the weekly schedule until you fell
> out of ketosis for a week to find your CCLL. Then you
> cruised below your CCLL to lose.
>
> Now you'll be deliberately out of ketosis on a weekly
> scheduled increase to find your CCLM. Ketosis made it really
> easy to find your
> CCLL. In ketosis under CCLL, out of ketosis over CCLL. But
> to find your CCLM try using cravings. Keep increasing
> until carb based cravings turn on. THen your CCLM is
> 5-10 under that level. Maintenance is staying between
> your CCLL and CCLM until you decide to gain it all
> back. Try to make that forever.

Are you basing this advice on your own experience maintaining,
or are you theorizing from what you have read?

The reason I ask is that my own experience has been that both
my carb level and my cravings are very poor guides to
successful maintenance. I can eat a surprising amount of carbs
now without developing cravings.

I've also found that if my calories go up, I gain weight. It's
very clear. Maintenance for me ever since the end of April has
been eating at almost the same level at which I lost weight. I
can eat a bit more carbs but only at most 100 more calories a
day. I've tested this a couple times, and there is no way
around it.

Dr. Bernstein (of the book, Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution)
writes that that once you find the nutritional level at
which you can lose weight on a low carb diet you have to
eat at that same level for the rest of your life. He
claims to have worked with many patients on weight loss
and he's right about so many things I don't see any reason
to doubt him. It certainly seems true for me.

I suspect that Atkins omitted much discussion of maintenance
in his books because the beginning dieter wants to believe
that once goal is attained they can loosen up and eat a lot
more stuff than they did during the weight loss phase. Telling
people that the diet of the weight loss phase is what they're
going to have to eat for the rest of the life could send your
book right into the remainder bin.

-- Jenny

Cut the carbs to respond to my new email address!

Weight: 168.5/137 Diabetes Type II diagnosed 8/1998 - HBa1c
5.2 10/03 Low Carb 9/1998 - 8/2001 and 11/10/02 - Now

http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean How to calculate
your need for protein * How much people really lose each
month * Water Weight Gain & Loss * The "Two Gram Cure" for
Hunger Cravings
* Characteristics of Successful Dieters * Indispensible Low
Carb Treats * Should You Count that Low Impact Carb? *
Curing Ketobreath * Exercise Starting from Zero * Do Starch
Blockers Work? * NEW! Why the Low Carb Diet is Great for
Diabetes * NEW! Low Carb Strategies for People with Diabetes

[Wayne Cran]

In article <20031106224859.05138.00000028@mb-m22.aol.com>,
cotongrmr@aol.com (Robyn Rosenthal) wrote:

> >From: "Jenny" lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com
>
> >
> >
> >"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:7960d3ee.0311061340.68163bee@posting.google.com...
> >>
> >> So step back and view it like the beginning of OWL. At
> >> the start of OWL you followed the weekly schedule until
> >> you fell out of ketosis for a week to find your CCLL.
> >> Then you cruised below your CCLL to lose.
> >>
> >> Now you'll be deliberately out of ketosis on a weekly
> >> scheduled increase to find your CCLM. Ketosis made it
> >> really easy to find your
> >> CCLL. In ketosis under CCLL, out of ketosis over CCLL.
> >> But to find your CCLM try using cravings. Keep
> >> increasing until carb based cravings turn on. THen
> >> your CCLM is 5-10 under that level. Maintenance is
> >> staying between your CCLL and CCLM until you
> >> decide to gain it all back. Try to make that
> >> forever.
> >
> >Are you basing this advice on your own experience
> >maintaining, or are you theorizing from what you have read?
> >
> >The reason I ask is that my own experience has been that
> >both my carb level and my cravings are very poor guides to
> >successful maintenance. I can eat a surprising amount of
> >carbs now without developing cravings.
> >
> >I've also found that if my calories go up, I gain weight.
> >It's very clear. Maintenance for me ever since the end of
> >April has been eating at almost the same level at which I
> >lost weight. I can eat a bit more carbs but only at most
> >100 more calories a day. I've tested this a couple times,
> >and there is no way around it.
> >
> >Dr. Bernstein (of the book, Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes
> > Solution) writes that that once you find the
> > nutritional level at which you can lose weight on a low
> > carb diet you have to eat at that same level for the
> > rest of your life. He claims to have worked with many
> > patients on weight loss and he's right about so many
> > things I don't see any reason to doubt him. It
> > certainly seems true for me.
> >
> >I suspect that Atkins omitted much discussion of
> >maintenance in his books because the beginning dieter wants
> >to believe that once goal is attained they can loosen up
> >and eat a lot more stuff than they did during the weight
> >loss phase. Telling people that the diet of the weight loss
> >phase is what they're going to have to eat for the rest of
> >the life could send your book right into the remainder bin.
> >
> >-- Jenny
> >
>
> I am really confused.
>
> If you are losing at a certain calorie level, why would that
> be your "maintenance" level?
>
> Or is that just a diabetic thing?
>
> I understand that your body needs less calories as you
> lose weight, but I don't get how a calorie level which is
> enough of a deficit that you can lose transforms to a
> maintenance level.
>
> That is exactly opposite of both my experience and everyone
> with whom I have "compared notes." Generally speaking, what
> I have found and heard about from other people is that as
> you continue to eat at "maintenance" and work out,
> maintenance becomes a deficit and you have to either eat
> more or buy smaller clothes.
>
> Of course, this is talking about people in the so-called
> "normal" BF ranges. If you are at sub 10% for a man or sub
> 18% for a woman, your body will fight like heck to keep
> every ounce, so if you are that lean, it would make sense
> that you have to maintain strict caloric restriction to
> fight your body's survival instincts:)Robyn

Robyn: You are actually not confused. You are simply reacting
to another of the endless "Jenny-isms" that she inflicts upon
this group. If you are confused by our dear Jenny, take heart.
That actually means you have it pegged.

--
Wayne Crannell Atkins+ 10/27/01
250/139

[Jenny]

Robyn,

I don't think that having to stay at the level where you lost
weight is necessarily a diabetic thing. It might be a
post-menopausal lady thing. Women at this age are notorious
for gaining weight. I was told that 95% of them do, so I'm
fighting my body harder than someone younger would be.

The reason a reducing level has become a maintenance level
seems to be that after many months of losing about a pound a
month my body has lost all the weight is it going to lose at
that level. Since that level is not much higher than the level
where you're eating below your basal metabolic rate, I'm not
going any lower!

My weight is now well within the normal range for my size. I'm
not sure what my body fat level is, but five months ago it was
about 27% and I've been working out ever since then and
dropped another pants size.

I think what has happened is that my body has responded to my
30 lb weight loss (18% of starting weight) by deciding a
famine is occuring and it is trying to do something about it.
I ate at this calorie level for many many months very happily.
It felt like enough food, but this last month when it started
to get cold, I suddenly started feeling like I needed more
food. This wasn't the old "craving" thing you get when your
carbs are high, but more subtle.

I tried boosting calories with mostly fat while keeping low
carb for a few weeks to see if that would help but ended up
gaining 2 real pounds. I've also tried a few "refeeds" to see
if that might nudge the leptin levels up. No dice.

It's frustrating because I was so happy eating at this level
for so many months that I had thought I could stay there
forever happily. I am attracted to doing a lowish calorie
thing long term as that kind of diet has kept my dad alive and
very healthy to 98 years old

--
Jenny

Cut the carbs to respond to my new email address!

Weight: 168.5/137 Diabetes Type II diagnosed 8/1998 - HBa1c
5.2 10/03 Low Carb 9/1998 - 8/2001 and 11/10/02 - Now

http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean How to calculate
your need for protein * How much people really lose each
month * Water Weight Gain & Loss * The "Two Gram Cure" for
Hunger Cravings
* Characteristics of Successful Dieters * Indispensible Low
Carb Treats * Should You Count that Low Impact Carb? *
Curing Ketobreath * Exercise Starting from Zero * Do Starch
Blockers Work? * NEW! Why the Low Carb Diet is Great for
Diabetes * NEW! Low Carb Strategies for People with Diabetes

"Robyn Rosenthal" <cotongrmr@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031106224859.05138.00000028@mb-m22.aol.com...
> >From: "Jenny" lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com
>
> >
> >
> >"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:7960d3ee.0311061340.68163bee@posting.google.com...
> >>
> >> So step back and view it like the beginning of OWL. At
> >> the start of OWL you followed the weekly schedule until
> >> you fell out of ketosis for a week to find your CCLL.
> >> Then you cruised below your CCLL to lose.
> >>
> >> Now you'll be deliberately out of ketosis on a weekly
> >> scheduled increase to find your CCLM. Ketosis made it
> >> really easy to find your
> >> CCLL. In ketosis under CCLL, out of ketosis over CCLL.
> >> But to find your CCLM try using cravings. Keep
> >> increasing until carb based cravings turn on. THen
> >> your CCLM is 5-10 under that level.
Maintenance
> >> is staying between your CCLL and CCLM until you decide to
> >> gain it all back. Try to make that forever.
> >
> >Are you basing this advice on your own experience
> >maintaining, or are you theorizing from what you have read?
> >
> >The reason I ask is that my own experience has been that
> >both my carb
level
> >and my cravings are very poor guides to successful
> >maintenance. I can eat
a
> >surprising amount of carbs now without developing cravings.
> >
> >I've also found that if my calories go up, I gain weight.
> >It's very
clear.
> >Maintenance for me ever since the end of April has been
> >eating at almost
the
> >same level at which I lost weight. I can eat a bit more
> >carbs but only at most 100 more calories a day. I've tested
> >this a couple times, and there
is
> >no way around it.
> >
> >Dr. Bernstein (of the book, Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes
> > Solution) writes
that
> >that once you find the nutritional level at which you can
> >lose weight on
a
> >low carb diet you have to eat at that same level for the
> >rest of your
life.
> >He claims to have worked with many patients on weight loss
> >and he's right about so many things I don't see any reason
> >to doubt him. It certainly seems true for me.
> >
> >I suspect that Atkins omitted much discussion of
> >maintenance in his books because the beginning dieter wants
> >to believe that once goal is attained they can loosen up
> >and eat a lot more stuff than they did during the
weight
> >loss phase. Telling people that the diet of the weight loss
> >phase is what they're going to have to eat for the rest of
> >the life could send your
book
> >right into the remainder bin.
> >
> >-- Jenny
> >
>
> I am really confused.
>
> If you are losing at a certain calorie level, why would that
> be your "maintenance" level?
>
> Or is that just a diabetic thing?
>
> I understand that your body needs less calories as you lose
> weight, but I
don't
> get how a calorie level which is enough of a deficit that
> you can lose transforms to a maintenance level.
>
> That is exactly opposite of both my experience and everyone
> with whom I
have
> "compared notes." Generally speaking, what I have found and
> heard about
from
> other people is that as you continue to eat at "maintenance"
> and work out, maintenance becomes a deficit and you have to
> either eat more or buy
smaller
> clothes.
>
> Of course, this is talking about people in the so-called
> "normal" BF
ranges. If
> you are at sub 10% for a man or sub 18% for a woman, your
> body will fight
like
> heck to keep every ounce, so if you are that lean, it would
> make sense
that you
> have to maintain strict caloric restriction to fight your
> body's survival instincts:)Robyn

[Doug Freyb]

Jenny wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > So step back and view it like the beginning of OWL. At the
> > start of OWL you followed the weekly schedule until you
> > fell out of ketosis for a week to find your CCLL. Then you
> > cruised below your CCLL to lose.
>
> > Now you'll be deliberately out of ketosis on a weekly
> > scheduled increase to find your CCLM. Ketosis made it
> > really easy to find your
> > CCLL. In ketosis under CCLL, out of ketosis over CCLL.
> > But to find your CCLM try using cravings. Keep
> > increasing until carb based cravings turn on. THen
> > your CCLM is 5-10 under that level. Maintenance is
> > staying between your CCLL and CCLM until you decide
> > to gain it all back. Try to make that forever.
>
> Are you basing this advice on your own experience
> maintaining, or are you theorizing from what you have read?

Both, sort of. Dr A sucked at defining his terms. He gave
confusing and conflicting instructions about Induction and OWL
but he barely even wrote enough about Premaintenance to get
confused. Certainly not enough to have a clear plan of
instructions.

So I extrapolated the simple principles of the plan a bit.
Below CCLL you lose, above CCLL you don't. CCLL is determined
by carb metabolism specifically ketosis. Thus below CCLM you
don't gain, above CCLM you do gain. CCLM is determined by carb
metabolism specifically, uhm, something Atkins does not
mention. Well, he uses the word "gain" but as badly as he uses
"lose" and "ketosis" interchangably it's not like taking the
word "gain" literially is going to help.

So I was faced with a puzzle. Carb metabolism comes in ranges.
From zero to CCLL there isn't enough intake to burn for fuel
so the body burns stored fat. From CCLL to CCLM there is
enough carb fuel to burn for fuel so more just gets wasted, to
a point. Above CCLM is that point, wehre there's enough extra
carbs that the body is able to store new fat. Finding CCLL is
easy using ketosis. What criteria to use to find CCLM? Dr A
didn't offer much help just a poorly defined word.

My thesis is it is about the glycogen stored in the liver,
that magic water lost in Induction. Folks don't see a lot of
sudden water gain the day they go out of ketosis unless they
seriously cheat. Okay, that means the liver doesn't start
storing glycogen until above the
CCLL. Bingo. Well, bingo if my thesis is correct anyways.

So how to figure out if your liver has started storing
glycogen and the water that goes with it? That's the key. It
should be visible in one of these ways, maybe others:

1) Gain a pound of verifiable fat. Must know your water swing
to be able to tell this. So many folks see the scale swing
and aren't tempermentally ready to tell water from fat.

2) Have your water swing suddenly go from one range to a
higher range. That would be a specific water gain somewhere
AKA the liver. If you were able to estimate the water
portion of your Indcution loss (half? all but 4? whatever)
and the amount the swing sifts is that much, bingo.

3) Have cravings turn back on. You'll have to know all of your
binge triggers for this one, though. Otherwise you can't
tell trying a new intolerance food from finding your CCLM.
The idea here is Induction drains the liver's carb tank and
cravings turn off. So carb cravings are from a carb tank
that is neither empty nor full. Get cravings and the tank
must have been partially filled again.

Anyways, the 3 criteria above should be different views of the
same thing if my thesis is correct, and it could probably be
expressed in several other ways as well.

It took me about a year to puzzle that all out. Most of
2001 I think.

> The reason I ask is that my own experience has been that
> both my carb level and my cravings are very poor guides to
> successful maintenance. I can eat a surprising amount of
> carbs now without developing cravings.

Okay, so how about using the change in water swing.

> I've also found that if my calories go up, I gain weight.

Sure. Out of ketosis, no more metabolic edge. Out of ketosis,
no more hormone balance insisting that fat flow out of
storage. The overall idea of Atkins (with a lot of "shoulds"
and "for most peoples" stuck in every other word) is that for
the same amount of calories, you can lose while in ketosis,
maintain while in your maintenance range, and gain if your
carb intake is high enough.

> Maintenance for me ever since the end of April has been
> eating at almost the same level at which I lost weight.

Calories or carbs?

> I can eat a bit more carbs but only at most 100 more
> calories a day.

Right, carbs. Atkins in theory is in the form "for the same
amount of calories, vary your carbs and this happens". Add
more calories and you are in a different ballgame.

> Dr. Bernstein (of the book, Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes
> Solution) writes that that once you find the
> nutritional level at which you can lose weight on a low
> carb diet you have to eat at that same level for the
> rest of your life. He claims to have worked with many
> patients on weight loss and he's right about so many
> things I don't see any reason to doubt him. It
> certainly seems true for me.

I've read Atkins, Eades, Hellers and a few others. Not
Bernstein so far. So I can't comment on Bernstein without
showing my ignorance. But comparing with Atkins: Atkins
implicitly refers to a steady calorie level and varying carb
level. At least that's how I interpret Atkins and I'm not
positive that's what he meant. Your statement does sound like
my interpretation of the Atkins theory of varying carbs within
the same calorie level.

> I suspect that Atkins omitted much discussion of maintenance
> in his books because the beginning dieter wants to believe
> that once goal is attained they can loosen up and eat a lot
> more stuff than they did during the weight loss phase.

Sure. The early phases sell the book. Look at how much more
space the fad diet approach got in the 2003 edition and it
sold like hotcakes, er like steaks. I'm positive he did that
because his market was mostly newbies so he spent more time on
newbie topics. By the time you've reached maintenance youy're
pretty much on your own so he gives that phase short shrift,
but by the time you've reached maintenance you've had plenty
of time to figure stuff out anyways. It adds up, plus or
minues, taking Dr A's book commisions into account.

> Telling people that the diet of the weight loss phase is
> what they're going to have to eat for the rest of the life
> could send your book right into the remainder bin.

Except it's the same amount of calories and more carbs. But
yes I agree with your point in general. For the rest of your
life you have to eat an amount of calories that stuffed you in
early Induction, or maybe you will slowly taper off to some
lower but comfortable level. The point remains that if you
allow yourself to get hungry, baring a broken metabolism,
you're supposed to eat more. And that system continues to work
for most into maintenance.

[Jenny]

Robyn,

I'm sorry if my previous post wasn't clear. I have lost both
scale weight and pants sizes since I had my body fat measured
last spring. I was trying to say that I haven't been able to
get another body fat measurement since then, so the only guage
I have of whether there's more muscle is how clothing fits.

I have been doing cardio 3 to 4 hours a week for many months
and I lost weight slowly but steadily every month since last
November. Weight loss only stopped this past month when a
massive "eat nuts and cheese" urge took over. It's hard to
know what the cause might be. I'd started an upper body weight
program, gone back on estrogen, and did eat whole lot more
nuts and cheese than usual. The result was that I seem to have
gained two real pounds.

I am starting to think there must be some kind of seasonal
thing going on. My typical weight pattern over many years has
always been to thin down during the winter when I hibernate in
my office and write books and then eat more during the summer
when I'm outside and more active. This year I lost weight all
summer and now I'm definitely feeling as if my body is
worrying about hibernatory failure. It can worry all it wants,
though. I'm NOT giving
in. <g>

-- Jenny

Cut the carbs to respond to my new email address!

Weight: 168.5/137 Diabetes Type II diagnosed 8/1998 - HBa1c
5.2 10/03 Low Carb 9/1998 - 8/2001 and 11/10/02 - Now

http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean How to calculate
your need for protein * How much people really lose each
month * Water Weight Gain & Loss * The "Two Gram Cure" for
Hunger Cravings
* Characteristics of Successful Dieters * Indispensible Low
Carb Treats * Should You Count that Low Impact Carb? *
Curing Ketobreath * Exercise Starting from Zero * Do Starch
Blockers Work? * NEW! Why the Low Carb Diet is Great for
Diabetes * NEW! Low Carb Strategies for People with Diabetes

"Robyn Rosenthal" <cotongrmr@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031107103825.16519.00000189@mb-m27.aol.com...
> >From: "Jenny" lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com
>
> >
> >
> >Robyn,
> >
> >I don't think that having to stay at the level where you
> >lost weight is necessarily a diabetic thing. It might be a
> >post-menopausal lady thing. Women at this age are notorious
> >for gaining weight. I was told that 95%
of
> >them do, so I'm fighting my body harder than someone
> >younger would be.
> >
> >The reason a reducing level has become a maintenance level
> >seems to be
that
> >after many months of losing about a pound a month my body
> >has lost all
the
> >weight is it going to lose at that level. Since that level
> >is not much higher than the level where you're eating below
> >your basal metabolic
rate,
> >I'm not going any lower!
>
> If you are eating at very close to your BMR, can you
> increase your BMR via exercise or do the lowered hormone
> levels make that impossible?
>
> I am curious because the weight fell off of me OK when I
> started LCing,
but
> when I added weight training that is when I started seeing
> REAL results.
>
> >My weight is now well within the normal range for my size.
> >I'm not sure what my body fat level is, but five months ago
> >it was about 27% and I've been working out ever since then
> >and dropped another pants size.
> >
>
> So if you dropped a pants size without losing scale
> weight, you got
smaller
> eating at maintenance? I'll bet if you did BF measurements
> again you have actually lost fat eating at what you thought
> was maintanence but gained a little muscle at the same time.
>
> That happens to me, I will be cranky because the scale
> hasn't moved in a
while
> & then I will notice that my pants are sagging.
>
> >I think what has happened is that my body has responded to
> >my 30 lb
weight
> >loss (18% of starting weight) by deciding a famine is
> >occuring and it is trying to do something about it. I ate
> >at this calorie level for many
many
> >months very happily. It felt like enough food, but this
> >last month when
it
> >started to get cold, I suddenly started feeling like I
> >needed more food. This wasn't the old "craving" thing you
> >get when your carbs are high, but more subtle.
> >
>
> According to Paleo diet theory, your body wants to pile on a
> little fat to
help
> get you through the winter.
>
> For the last couple of weeks I have been CRAVING fruits and
> veggies,
especially
> apples and I suspect that is my body saying -- hey winter is
> coming we
aren't
> going to have anything to eat except for meat & the odd nut
> or berry.
>
> Too bad the ol' bod doesn't understand that the grocery
> stores are stocked
all
> winter long:)
>
>
> >I tried boosting calories with mostly fat while keeping low
> >carb for a
few
> >weeks to see if that would help but ended up gaining 2 real
> >pounds. I've also tried a few "refeeds" to see if that
> >might nudge the leptin levels
up.
> >No dice.
> >
> >It's frustrating because I was so happy eating at this
> >level for so many months that I had thought I could stay
> >there forever happily. I am
attracted
> >to doing a lowish calorie thing long term as that kind of
> >diet has kept
my
> >dad alive and very healthy to 98 years old
> >
> >--
> >Jenny
> >
>
> I have read a lot about increasing longevity via caloric
> restriction, but
I
> don't think I would do well with that. If I don't eat enough
> I get sick
within
> a couple of weeks.
>
> I guess every body has its own "set points"
>
> :)Robyn

[Toby]

On 07 Nov 2003 22:35:39 GMT, icrazyhorsei@aol.com
(Icrazyhorsei) wrote:

>Then, when I reached my goal weight -- or actually my body's
>goal weight of 168 and not *my* goal weight of 155 - odd
>things began to occur. Suddenly I was eating 1800 calories.
>Just happened. I couldn't seem to make myself eat less.

I'm really interested by this concept. Have many of you had
this happen? I was wondering if that's what my bod was saying
to me, as I'd hung at 133-137 for so long. Maybe that is where
I should stay. it would be relatively easy -- I too had
succombed to the cheese-and/or-nuts thing, but I was having
all I wanted of those, and still stayed in that range. People
say I look fine. I can see the flab, but even I admit it's
pretty minor, and I reckon at 58 I should expect some...

I do intend to pick up the official exercise during the
winter, to make up for what I'm not doing outside anymore.

So -- does ones body say ok, I like it here, and should we pay
attention to it if so?

toby.