Marathon Runners on Atkins

[mmmbeads]

Hi, I need some help, please... I agreed to train for the NY Marathon in March 2004. I have been on Atkins since 08/08/02. I would love to know what you are refueling your system with before, during and after training and marathon runs.


I am just beginning and will be running the half marathon ~ 13.1 miles. I still have 50+ pounds to lose and I know that since I am training, it will be coming off. It is already replacing muscle where fat was. I am sensitive to dextrose, as well. One lady told me about tubes of peanut butter, but I am afraid of that. I has sugar in it and is not on plan.

I did find a low carb sports drink recipe, but does that mean I will have to carry it to have it at the end? Guess so! Nobody else on my team is a low carb person so they are no help. The last thing I need is to be out of ketosis and want to go to slow down or sleep! LOL!

Every runner's bulletin board that I have been to has bashed this WOE/WOL and I refuse to go off plan. I know there is a way. If you can help me, please feel free!!!

I know that Dr Atkins once had a meeting on TV with another Atkins follower who was/is a triatholon person on Atkins. I would love to get a hold of anyone who can give me some good solid advice.

Thanks so much,
Shelley

[Karen 26.2]

Shelley,
I am a marathon runner. I have only been low carbing for 3 months and I have not run a marathon in this time. I am however, training for a marathon and my mileage is currently up to 16 miles.
I have not seen any ill effects up to this point. My energy levels are good and I am running better than ever with the weight that I have lost.
I am wondering too, if it is safe to continue to bump up my mileage and continue low carb.
I will be watching the postings for some good advice.

Good luck
Karen

[mmmbeads]

Hi Karen,

I know some other runners who have run marathons while remaining low carb. I am most interested in the snacks during and after the race. I plan to make my own low carb electrolyte replacement drink, without glucloes, of course.

They say we don't have to worry about hitting the wall because the wall is when our body runs out of glucose/glycogen and converts to burning fats, which we already are doing.

If you hear about what snacks we can use without a laxative effect, please let me know!

Which marathon are you training for now? Whatever it is, have fun and enjoy it!
Shelley

[PurpleStix]

I have no race goals these days, but workout every day with martial arts, swimming, or cycling (all three have aerobic and anaerobic components). Years ago I trained for and finished Ironman Canada on a high carb diet complete with Gatorade, maltodextrin and carb loading. I can't say the effect of diet on performance because I only did it once. I can say that I did not lose any weight on the HC diet, and I was a big boy (5'9", 190#). As I was just starting LC at the time of this year's Ironman, I asked myself the same question, that is how to fit LC with endurance events. I don't have an answer but, have the following observations and thoughts.

1. As an active person, with no endocrine problems other than those imposed by diet ;P and using every low glycemic trick I can, I have found I can get 20% of calories from carbs, yet maintain ketosis. :yay: Those tricks are to:
a) :nono: give preference to real, raw foods with low glycemic index. Barley is ultra low GI, and it replaces breakfast cereal and rice quite nicely.
b) :nono: balance the carbs with fat and protein every time I eat
2. With 20% carbs, I can survive workouts without trouble, but my performance is not optimum. If I really want to kick butt in an hour or two, I eat a Zone-balanced meal with 40% low GI carbs, then return to 20% for subsequent meals. Carbs give the explosive power that is needed for speed near the anaerobic threshold. Remember, glucose will supply some energy anaerobically (forming lactate). Keep in mind that I am talking about 1-1½ hour workouts, not marathons.
3. :nono: I pay attention to the quality of fats. With a high % of short chain fatty acids, butter burns easily without affecting insulin levels. Essential fatty acids have roles in metabolism, lactate disposal and repair of injury.
4. I think that optimum performance requires ready access to both fuel sources. If you can balance insulin and glucagon levels, imho you can get the power from carbs without wasting them (so glycogen stores last longer), and burn fat steadily. If you ever deplete your glycogen (hit the wall) the transition to all fat burning should be seamless.
5. During the race? When I was working at an Ironman bike aid station I noticed about 10% of participants were taking water bottles, then adding their own powder mixes. Perhaps they were protein powders. One racer pulled over to the side and ate a normal lunch: a sandwich and fruit.
6. I get 30% of calories from protein to maintain lean body mass and recommend reading the :read2: Zone books by Barry Sears, even if you choose different macronutrient ratios. I tweak his insulin-glucagon balanced formula (40-30-30) to favour ketosis; with 20% carbs, 50% fat, 30% protein.

I would be most interested in what other people are doing. We all know the dangers of being dogmatic :exclm:

[mmoranmic]

Hi Shelly,
Congrats on your commitment to training for the marathon. I currently run 50 miles a week training (now tapering) for a 24 hour track run on Nov 8/9th here in San Diego. I follow the Schwarzbein Principle a lower carb program consisting of whole foods and higher carbs than Atkins. I eat higher carbs on my high mileage days and reduce the amount on my off days. For long training runs I eat breakfast prior to running (egg whites, veggies, almond butter) and I eat snacks on my runs, raisens, Zone bars, hammer gels or Cliff shots. I carry my snacks in the pockets of a single bottle holder. Running a marthon I use gels mostly, carry my own water bottle and only have to enter an aid/water station every hour or so to fill up the water. I eat a getl every half hour during a marthon. On longer trail races 50k's, 50 milers, etc. I eat about 200 calories an hour mixing fat with carbs, carbs alone causes stomach distress for me.
After my long run I drink a protein shake with glutamine to aid in muscle recovery. I then revert to my lower carb way of life with no ill effects.
I have tried to run over 4 hours with no carbs and I hit the wall bigtime! Your liver can only store about 4 hours worth of glycogen, after that you need carbs or you will hit the wall. I hear it takes many months and lots of training to teach your body to run on fat first and foremost.
Good luck to you on your marathon and I'm sure the experiences that you gain from your own training will determine how and what your body requires.
Good luck,
Maureen

[mmoranmic]

One more thing! I sure as heck would not eat any of the so-called low carb bars during the marathon or training. I can only imagine the stomach distress! Yikes, it's hard enough running, let alone wondering if the tummy can digest the sugar alcohols.

[mmmbeads]

Thanks, y'all! I worry about how I will feel if I ingest the glucose in the gels. Maybe I will try them when I build up my mileage a bit and see how they affect me. I don't want to wear myself out, but don't want to go off plan either. I get sleepy for three days when I get thrown out of ketosis.

Experimentation is in order, eh?
Shelley

[climbergrl]

It gets easier...everyone was telling me that when I started low carbing and I didn't believe it. Shortly before during a long run, I usually have a lowfat, SMALL carby snack. A banana is a great example. It really helps, especially in the beginning when your body is not too used to the low carbing. If naything, you'll be so afraid of the carbs that you'll want to exercise a little longer to burn them off! You may soon disocver that you don't really need the pre-workout carb snack. On weekend mornings when I do my longer runs, I treat myself to a banana with peanut butter....you burn off all the carbs and you get some protein and fat from the peanut butter. It really sustains me.
I've always avoided the sports drinks because it seems like a waste to drink your calories since they don't make you feel full.
Bottom line is, if you are feeling too weak to run, then up your carbs a little pre-workout because you reap greater benefits, mentally and physically, if you can exercise.

[mmmbeads]

Hi, I did much better yesterday than the previous 2weeks. I did 4 miles yesterday, with ease. Yes, I have been training and working something 6 days a week for two weeks now, trying to get stronger.

The main difference in my performance with changes in my Atkins regime were as follows:

The night before I made a batch of Almond Flax Muffins. OK I was out of almonds, so I omitted them this time. I made the recipe and divided it into 6 muffins. I had 2 (2.92 carbs and 1.65 gms fiber each) muffins on Friday night as my mid evening snack.

Two hours before my training started, I had an atkins protein shake, some blackberries, some sugar free bacon and two more flaxseed muffins.

I got to the trail 45 minutes early. Minutes later, I was ready to roll! The first mile was a little stiff, but the next three were a steady pace and I felt great!

Please note that the week before, I ate Atkins Faux French Toast, bacon and a few berries. I did have plenty of protein and fat, but not enough carbs to sustain me for over 30 minutes. The secret seems to be to up the carbs, but stay on the right path as far as the kinds of sugars you ingest? Such as dextrose instead of sucrose or fructose which have to be metabolised in the liver and cause me to go out of ketosis.

I have been reading the archives of Lyle MacDonald's posts on low carb and exercising. As I increase my mileage, I might have to improvise further, since the carbs only last 90-120 minutes at the most before you have to refuel.

Also, I read posts from people who were carbing with dextrose every 15-30 minutes. Still have to do some homework on that one. Apparently, dextrose bypasses the liver and dies not cause insulin spikes. It is pushed into the muscles for use.

This week when I go on the walk/run portion of my training again, I will see what else works for me, allowing me to remain on plan and burn the fat that I have plenty of at this moment. :)

Any comments from Atkins followers who have experience with marathon training and running/workouts ?
Thanks for reading this and helping me figure out this part of my plan.

Today is a good resting day!!
Shelley

[mmmbeads]

I signed up for my first registration number yesterday! I am so excited! I lost another inch off my hips this week. I have stayed the same weight even though I am building muscles in my legs. This is week 8 of my training. I added pilates in as one of my cross training events once a week. It is HARD! It shows me that I need more core strength.

Will be doing 7 miles on Saturday... Sweet tarts have been getting me through the long run days, along with Atkins protein shake or Ultra Whey wildberry flavor with stevia and some added raspberries or blackberries. Trying not to eat much solid food before my walk/running sessions. Always have a good lunch and dinner afterwards. Seems easier than eating eggs, bacon, etc. Trying to adjust where I don't have to make any stops on the trail.

Have you any advice for me? I tried getting on the rower before my trail activity, but it never fails... 30 minutes down the trail and I am longing for the bathroom. Help!

[kaypeeoh]

I've been on Atkins for six months. In that time I've run one marathon, three 50-mile races and one 100-mile race. Through trial-and-error I've found what works for me. That doesn't mean it will work for you or anyone else.

Without a small amount of extra carbs an hour or so before a workout, I have problems maintaining pace. I can walk easily but no energy to run. So an hour before the run I find some carbs: a bagel, banana, whatever.

If I feel drained after the workout that tells me I've used up the ingested carbs so I might take a bit more. Ingested carbs during exercise are utilized without stimulating insulin. So you shouldn't worry about what kind of carb you're eating.

For extra long runs I carry Hammergel. It's a dense, easily digested calorie source. I take a slug every hour or so.

[mmmbeads]

Thank you SO much for your input!!! I have been so concerned and have been thinking about trying some gels on my long days, to see how they affect me.

What do you do for your pre-race meals the night before?
Appreciate your help!
Shelley

[kaypeeoh]

Certainly no carb-loading. I think the night before the 100 mile race I had a big plate of bean burritos. During the race we runners had peanut butter burritos or bean burritos available. After dark we had bean soup. Beef jerky was also available but that's too difficult to digest.

[mmmbeads]

ahahaha! Blazing saddles, eh? :)
Thanks again for your help. I got some gel packs from my brother tonight. I will try one in the morning about an hour before my 7 miler? Or should I wait longer?
Shelley

[kaypeeoh]

If it's something like Gu or Hammergel, don't wait an hour. They're designed to be absorbed quickly. Same for bananas. If you eat a bagel or a starchy vegetable, it takes a while to be digested and absorbed. That's what the hour is for. But it's all a matter of trial-and-error, as I mentioned before.

[mmmbeads]

Thank you! I drank some on my way out the door and was energized before I got to the trail. Still had some time with the stamina and strength, but pushed it the entire time. I think I need to do more during my cross training days to build more muscle. I felt like I had energy, but not enough power to push hard more often. I guess that comes with time, huh?

For breakfast I had 4 oz heavy whipping cream, mixed with Atkins protein shake mix and some blackberries. sugar free bacon, coffee and then some Gu gel.

This is so new and exciting to me. I was a little discouraged when my training partner ran off and left me, but I will get over it. :) Working on my personal best right now and cannot compare myself to anyone else.

Thanks for being here!!
Shelley

[mmmbeads]

Figuring out my carbs for today on Fitday.com. The GU energy gel had 25 carbs in it and I did 7 miles after ingesting it.

My question is this...
Here is my data:
Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 1748
Fat: 127 1143 66%
Sat: 23 205 12%
Poly: 17 153 9%
Mono: 13 117 7%
Carbs: 68 212 12%
Fiber: 15 0 0%
Protein: 94 376 22%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%



If I deduct the fiber for the day, I still see 53 net grams of carbohydrate. Isn't that misleading when you consider 7 miles? Do you think I will have burned the gel up (and the 25 carbs along with it) and deduct that at the end of the day or what?

I tested for ketones after dinner and I am in the pink. I usually have 25 net grams on the days that I don't walk/run.

Do I not count these carbs and continue my usual carb allowance? I have not had this many carbs since I started Atkins.

Breakfast: I had a protein shake with 1 scoop Atkins chocolate protein shake mix, 4 oz heavy whipping cream and 8 blackberries, adding a little Stevia clear. 6 oz coffee with tsp cream and drop of Stevia Clear.
2 slices SF bacon

Pack of GU energy gel on the way out the door to run 7.

Snack: ¼c unsalted sunflower seeds

Lunch: 4 thin slices Ovengold Roast turkey breast with no sugars added, 1tsp dijon and 1oz Jarlsburg cheese.
4000mg flaxseed oil gel caps

Snack: Atkins Protein Bar

Dinner: 6 large shrimp, boiled, topped with broccoli and yellow squash leftover from last night's dinner; added 4 black olives, ¼c tomatoes with roasted garlic and topped with 1oz mozzarella cheese. Melted and bubbly.

Snack: 1c cauliflower, 1T mayonnaise and 1T parmesan, melted until browned and bubbly.

What do you think? I don't want to gain weight from too many carbs, but I have a feeling that the carbs from the Gu gel were burned.. hoping that is what happens anyway!

Any help or advice that you give me is appreciated.
Shelley

[mmoranmic]

Hi mmm,
50 carbs a day sounds good with seven miles per day. On my less mileage days I don't eat anything before I run. On longer days, runs greater than 2 hours I use Cliff Shot or Hammer gel, one every hour or so. I also eat raisens or Zone bars.
As usual, I agree with Kaypeeoh you don't need to carbo load. One mile of running will burn the 25 carbs in the gel you ate. I eat 80-100 carbs per day when in training for a race. I completed the 24 hour event here getting 100.7 miles in 24 hours. I ate gels, soup and a lot of fruit (oranges) during the event. I aslo made up a shake with heavy cream in it for my fat intake. In longer events my stomach does not do well on carbs alone.
Reading Kaypeeoh's post reminded me of our last trail race. I worked the red beans and rice aid station! Yikes!!!!!!!!!! Never again!
mmm, when you find aout about how your body handles dextrose I sure would like to hear about it.
Good luck to you!
Maureen

[mmmbeads]

Hi Maureen! :waving

I knew that I could find my answers on this board!! Thank you and the other list members!! I feel so much better now that I am armed with more knowledge. After all, knowlege is power!!

I started off with dextrose because I was reading Lyle MacDonald's posts about ketogenic regimes and exercise. One man mentioned eating sweet tarts and smarties when he was skiing all day, while on a low carb regime. He also had problems with carb loads causing spikes of insulin.

Before I started working out, I stayed clear of dextrose while on Atkins. I had not lost any weight, although I was losing inches, for a while. I was in the process of elimination to see what was stalling me.

When I decided to take on the challenge of this marathon, my first (beaming with pride), I read that dextrose bypassed the liver and was not going to cause spikes and mess me up. I started eating 2 rolls of sweet tarts, in the beginning. At first, I tried both rolls on the way out the door (20 minutes to the trail with no traffic). I experimented eating one roll before I left and one after I started bonking. I found that I was not getting energy for the first 3 miles of my sessions. After the first three miles, I was not tight in the calves and feeling as slow. However, it was not enough. I needed to turn up the volume, as they say.

I found out a few days ago that we DON'T have 6.5 hours to complete this race. (I am training for the half in a 6 month period). we have 3 hours! I sat here at this computer for 5 years and hardly did much of any activity ~ lots of bead work and talking to on line buddies. I had to make myself get up and start moving. It was like starting from scratch, so I have been slowly building my muscles, strength and working on stamina. This is week 8.

I was having a hard time with the running... no fuel stored in the muscles on this regime. This is all so new and wonderful to me!! It is my birthday present to myself and I won't go there! LOL! I feel like I am beginning a new and wonderful part of my journey now. Who knew? :)

Thanks again for all your help! I am in awe of you both ~ trying to fathom a 100 mile run. Jeepers!!!

Shelley

[mmoranmic]

Hi Shelley,
Wow, you are on a tear and you will be fine. It does take a lot of time ot train. I get up at 4a.m. most days to go train. I read with interest your info about Sweet Tarts (one of my favorites as a kid). I prefer to use the gels as them seem to give me steady stream of energy. For myself I have to avoid the high fructose corn syrup products as they set me up for carvings like crazy. I have a problem with Jelly Bellies. In fact I was sugar free for three months and relapsed on jelly bellies. I'm three days off right now. I need to get back on track and you are very inspiring. I think you are not only giving yourself a gift you are helping others!
Hey, I ran my first marathon alomost six years ago. With a lot of training most anyone can run a 100!
Bye,
Maureen