Semi-serious cyclist/exerciser – need help

[lyle1152]

I'm a new poster so if this topic is been covered before just let me know.

Is there a book or guide for a semi-serious exerciser or cyclist on appropriate levels of Carbs, fat intake and calories? Also, I see that several studies show increasing fat on a low carb diet may help in endurance, any practical guide for this?

I originally used the Atkins diet to lose 35 lbs. After the initial weight loss I started exercising allot (4-5 times a week, netting about 11 hours of moderate (70% max heart rate) to high (85% max heart rate). I did not gain much or lose any wight for about 6 months. I honestly just seemed to slowly quit counting carbs and calories (it was not like I tried to go to a high carb diet but I think it just happened – because of sports drinks and power bars…ect)

Due to business and family commitments my level of exercise has dropped. It looks like 5 – 8 hrs will be the limit. Because of the drop in exercise I have started gaining weight and body fat. I don’t think I will be able to give 11 hours per week.

Again, I would like a book or guide to understand the concepts because I might be able to cycle more later so I would like to adapt the diet then too.

Thanks.

[readyami]

I've found it difficult to stay on a real low carb diet at 11 hours exercise. At about 6 hours, I began to have headaches. Active.com, a good resource, says that endurance athletes should get about 15% from protein, 60-70% from carbs, and the rest fats. Here's a link to a recent article:

I did strict Atkins for five months, then started triathlon training seriously, and had to give it up. I have maintained my weight (from Atkins loss) for almost a year at this level.

I will be doing the MS-150 in my state this weekend (cycling 150 miles in 2 days).

I think low carb is a super way to go to get the weight off. However, at higher levels of exercise, and especially long duration exercise, it is crucial for your body to have fuel to burn.

[readyami]

whoops....couldn't find the link...will have to get the article from my home computer.

[Kestrel]

Lyle, if you're going to try semi-serious cycling, etc, on low carb, then remember to get sufficient energy via saturated fats, such as butter. Don't depend on olive oil, etc, as they probably aren't metabolized the same. Don't shortchange on fats, otherwise you won't be doing well.

Remember to give yourself sufficient time to adjust to low carb. Older folks such as myself may well need more time to adjust than younger people.

[Meg_S]

Here is a link for eating for athletic performance

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/athletic_diet.html

[dug]

fuel is in fat, protien and carbs, not just carbs. carbs are more readily converted to glycegen which is the actual fuel your muscles use, but the other fuels also get converted glycogen for use. I find that at about 50-60g carbs per day is sufficient for triathlon training. Of course everyone is unique so you will have to find the level that works for you. But it sems 50-60 is about what most athletes on here find keeps them from bonking.

[lyle1152]

First, thanks to everyone who responded.

When I find the right carb level for me,, let say for discussion it is 60 grams. What does everyone do on the days that they do high level excercise ( I ride for about 3 hours +- 15 minutes). Do you still keep to the 60? Do you go higher throughout the day or just during the high level exercise period? If it is just during the workout how do you apply the carb intake.

Thanks again.

[Meg_S]

I think that you have to figure that our through experimentation. For example, two years ago I would have had better performance on long steep hikes with a heavy load on the pack if I ingested a lot of carbs. Now.. I do *much* better and feel great with minimal carbs, and extra fat. Minimal = under 20. My body has adjusted to prefer fat for fuel, over time, if you choose, yours might as well... but obviously it's individual.

[PurpleStix]

Lyle, you might want to read the Zone series of books by Barry Sears. Features of his program include:

- it is oriented towards performance and health rather than weight control. However if one is over-fat, the problem will correct itself :)
- 40% carbs, 30% fat, 30% protein
- Protein requirement is calculated from your lean body mass (muscle+bone) and your level of activity. Then carbs and fats are adjusted to fit the formula.
- Eat all 3 macronutrients together in a meal, and eat low glycemic index foods to slow the entry of glucose into the bloodstream.
- There is a lot of information about fatty acids in the diet and their impact on health
- There is a high fat variant for endurance athletes. Sears came up with the 40:30:30 for football players and Olympic swimmers. However, Sears acknowledges that endurance athletes might do better with more fat, while maintaining the ratio of carb to protein.

My experience: A few years ago I did Ironman at 190#, with at least 60% of calories from carbs, high glycemic index foods like bananas and Gatorade, and lots of carb loading. In I never lost any weight at all that year, even though by best fighting weight is 175# and I was training 20+ hours per week :(

Personally, I am going with C:F:P 20:50:30 right now, about 110 g carbs because it is more important at this stage for me to lose fat, and (lucky me) I get ketosis with that fuel mixture. When I get within 15# of my goal, I will likely move towards 40:30:30, and fine tune the ratios at that point. This is just for my martial arts and biking around town. At the moment I have no plans to do triathlons or other endurance events.

Why 40% carbs?
1. I expect it would be difficult to eat and digest >60% fat and protein when there is a high caloric requirement.
2. Full glycogen fuel tank is good, and useful for anaerobic work.
3. IMHO the glucose system is better regulated with insulin than ketones with glucagon. The rapid weight loss in Atkins induction is from glucagon running crazy while its controller, insulin is at low levels. Insulin is a very responsive hormone which can be bad or good depending on your genetics, diet and activity levels.
4. Glucose and ketones are converted to acetyl coenzyme A, then enter Kreb's cycle, where fuel is broken down into energy, CO2 and H2O. I am just guessing here, but there may be more energy available if both fuels are pushing their way into Kreb's cycle instead of just one. That may explain in part why Zone-balanced eating correlates with high performance.

Be warned: in 'Enter the Zone', Sears shows a lack of knowledge about ketosis. He says it is an 'abnormal metabolic state', but later in the book he gives examples of the benefits of high fat diets for fat loss. I did the Zone for a day and tested positive for ketones four hours after the last Zone meal. It is unlikely that he ever tested his athletes for ketones, and they were probably in ketosis part of the time.

I don't know what the best mix is. I just know that it isn't 60:25:15 ;)

[joel381]

This last post by purple seemed interesting. I too have found that a "Zone" type level of carbs 40% seems to work around a high activity periods myself. The 60-70% carb levels seem way up there, at least for my activity level.

[scottie123]

I find your 40% rationale interesting.

#1: There are people eating 100% fat diets. Many Atkins eaters are below 10% carbs and doing fine. I am not sure where that puts the fats and proteins. But it is hardly a reason to eat less (more) fat.

#2 Triathlon athletes are doing mostly aerobic training. The issue for all athletes is getting enough oxygen and energy to their muscles. Most athletes run out of oxygen before energy. And there is some suggestion that people who are burning fat (in ketosis) are better able to extend their endurance levels.

#3. I doubt if any of that is true or that anyone has ever suggested that is how being in ketosis works.

#4 Most fat is metabolized in the liver, not the muscles. Technically fat has more energy per pound. The major hurdle in burning fat is that to completely convert your body, it takes about 2-6 weeks ( that induction period ). Anyone exercising during the induction phase would have noticed the drop in energy/stamina/endurance. Then after this induction period, your stamina/endurace return to "normal".

You are assuming that ketones are an important component of LC food programs. Actually, ketones are part of a starvation scavenger pathway to supply the brain with energy when the body has no other food source. Most likely fat is being metabolized for energy OR fat is being converted into glucose by a yet unknown undetected metabolic pathway (my unproven scientific supposition/theory) Your blood sugar does not drop while burning fat after all.

Carbohydrates are NOT an essential food source. There must be a way to live without it.

A lot of training practices are anecdotal, passed down verbal from person to person. Often what is considered good is just plain wrong. A case in point -- stretching before exercising. Is it useful? Turns out, no. A study showed that the best warm up is to use the muscles in a manner like you are going to exert them. Jogging is a good warm up for racing.

[Liz53]

Dr Steve Phinney, one of the New Atkins for a New You co-authors is a cyclist and has done studies on very low carb programs (<50 grams carbs/day)for bicyclists. He has been in continuous ketosis for 7+ years. Google him + cycling and see what you find.

I agree with scottie123. Carbs are NOT essential. There will be a transitional period, but once acclimated, stored body fat is the perfect fuel for endurance sports.

[joel381]

I don't replenish glycogen stores fast enough for repeated days of high sustained effort. I am just about maxed out riding with some of these guys. Some of these people race bikes it maybe easy for them.

I too can go without carbs at a reduced effort level, thats not my problem.

But as PurpleStix stated:

Why 40% carbs?
2. Full glycogen fuel tank is good, and useful for anaerobic work.

So I bump the carbs up around the group ride periods which ends up at about 40% for the day. But having the energy not to be left behind is good, its nice to finish with the group.

If I just rode once a week it may not even be an issue.

You are assuming that ketones are an important component of LC food programs. Not sure where this is coming from?

#2 Triathlon athletes are doing mostly aerobic training. The issue for all athletes is getting enough oxygen and energy to their muscles. Most athletes run out of oxygen before energy. And there is some suggestion that people who are burning fat (in ketosis) are better able to extend their endurance levels. This does not sound like you engage in this activity and are reading about it.

[joel381]

Dr Steve Phinney, one of the New Atkins for a New You co-authors is a cyclist and has done studies on very low carb programs (<50 grams carbs/day)for bicyclists. He has been in continuous ketosis for 7+ years. Google him + cycling and see what you find.

I agree with scottie123. Carbs are NOT essential. There will be a transitional period, but once acclimated, stored body fat is the perfect fuel for endurance sports.
Phinneys study was at like 60% VOmax and the peak performance of the cyclists was reduced, by how much ???

[Liz53]

Steve Phinney on low carb bicycling:

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/

[joel381]

Steve Phinney on low carb bicycling:

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/


Below Fred's comment
Fred

December 29, 2011 at 9:30 pm

I’m familiar with Phinney’s work, mostly through this article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC524027/?tool=pubmed

Much of what he talks about in your interview is also discussed in his paper but, in his paper, he referred specifically to athletes engaging in submaximal activty, around 70% and decidedly aerobic in nature. He also states in the paper that a low-carb diet would probaly not be appropriate for competitive athletes.

From your interview, his position appears to have shifted considerably to advocate a low-carb diet for all types of strenuous training, including training for maximal effort activities such as sprinting.

The paper I referenced is from 2004 and could most definitely be out of date if there is more current research from Dr Phinney on athletes engaged in maximal effort. The evidence he presents, on humans, however, seems to be more anecdotal,



http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/01/04/steve-phinney-low-carb-shows-benefit-for-athletes/
STEVE PHINNEY REPLIES:For sprinting events, the effects of keto-adaptation are quite variable across athletes and specific events. One also needs to differentiate between the diet followed in training versus preparation for the event per se. There are some trainers who advocate ‘train low, perform high’, but I have not seen that supported by objective study.
The effects are quite variable: I agree

[Liz53]

No, I hadn't seen Fred's comment (nor had I seen your comment to my first post when I posted my second, so please don't interpret my second comment as a "volley"). Did you see Steve Phinney's reply to Fred and Shelley's comments?

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/01/04/steve-phinney-low-carb-shows-benefit-for-athletes/

Perhaps Steve Phinney's tests do not exactly meet what you are trying to do, but you won't know if it will work for you till you give it a try. He does note that the tests were done after only 2 weeks of adaptation and the entire process can take up to 4-6 weeks.

Good luck!

[joel381]

No, I hadn't seen Fred's comment (nor had I seen your comment to my first post when I posted my second, so please don't interpret my second comment as a "volley"). Did you see Steve Phinney's reply to Fred and Shelley's comments?

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/01/04/steve-phinney-low-carb-shows-benefit-for-athletes/

Perhaps Steve Phinney's tests do not exactly meet what you are trying to do, but you won't know if it will work for you till you give it a try. He does note that the tests were done after only 2 weeks of adaptation and the entire process can take up to 4-6 weeks.

Good luck!
Thanks, yes I dd see that a long adaption period maybe required. I do feel that I am already adapted to a degree, maybe just not there yet will see down the road a bit. Another guy who worked with Phinney 'Peter Attia' on this adaption seems to be having good results as well. Will add a link later when I locate it.

http://waroninsulin.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance

Peters results are interesting and this guy seems really putting some effort into it. He responds to a lot of questions on his site with " I'll respond to that in detail later" I'll wait on the detail, no hurry.

[Liz53]

There's a new Attia post today - perhaps his insights will help you figure out how to approach things. He's really good about answering readers' questions too.

http://waroninsulin.com/nutrition/what-do-anabolic-steroids-epo-and-carbohydrates-have-in-common

[joel381]

There's a new Attia post today - perhaps his insights will help you figure out how to approach things. He's really good about answering readers' questions too.

http://waroninsulin.com/nutrition/what-do-anabolic-steroids-epo-and-carbohydrates-have-in-common

I look at Peter as a somewhat new arrival to low-carb time wise, yet a very informative one. He certainly is into it big time, on a mission you might say. I very much enjoy his insight and am thankful he goes to the effort to present it:

Peters comments in article

You want to win the NCAA championship in the 200 yard freestyle? Ketosis is probably not for you. Sure you can (and should!) restrict sugar, but I think you’d be better off consuming, say, 40% of your calories from rice and non-wheat, non-sugar starches. A little genetic ability would not hurt either

and

So why am I in ketosis, even though I might “perform” better at some things if I ate carbohydrates? Because I’m a 39-year-old wannabe athlete whose athletic performance is irrelevant. Not a single person cares how fast I swim or ride my bike beyond myself. I have no sponsors. I will never earn a paycheck for how fast I can flip tires or climb Mount Palomar. I am more than willing to give up some athletic performance (e.g., sprint speed, peak power) in exchange for other athletic benefits (e.g., greater aerobic capacity and metabolic flexibility), especially when the real gain is greater health and a reduction in my risk for all diseases associated with metabolic syndrome (heart disease, diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer’s disease, and others).
General long term health concerns are quite important. I have to deal with an Alzheimer’s parent it's not easy.

This guy is a very active individual BTW, which also interests me. Not really a couple sprints a week type of thing.


Thanks again

[Liz53]

Yeah, Attia is pretty obsessed about his physical performance. Have you seen his tire flipping video?

His strength, I think, is balancing his activity within the context of a healthy life. Yes, you may be able to ride faster or longer with carbs, but is the trade-off worth it? Each person has to weigh all the factors and make his/her individual decision. Also, the balance may shift over time.

[Liz53]

Oh, one other book that might interest you if you've not yet seen it: the TNT Diet by Jeff Volek (New Atkins co-author) and Adam Someone from Men's Health Mag. The TNT Diet is fundamentally Atkins with 4 different modifications based on whether you are trying to lose weight and/or build muscle. A couple of the plans add carbs before and/or after workouts depending on your goals.

[JEY100]

New book by Dr. Phinney & Volek, the The Art & Science of low Carbohydrate Performance may answer more specific questions: http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Science-Carbohydrate-Performance/dp/0983490716

[CandidCam]

Oh, one other book that might interest you if you've not yet seen it: the TNT Diet by Jeff Volek (New Atkins co-author) and Adam Someone from Men's Health Mag. The TNT Diet is fundamentally Atkins with 4 different modifications based on whether you are trying to lose weight and/or build muscle. A couple of the plans add carbs before and/or after workouts depending on your goals.

This I need to look into. In 2 weeks my current competitive cycling/running season will end and with 40 only a couple of months away I have GOT to get my nagging 20-30#s to go away for good. I'd like to have most of it gone by Spring. It's going to be an interesting experiment to see what will work as I train this Winter for 2 half-marathons in April.

[wheeler]

I have to say that it took my body a very long time to adjust to LC at age 48. My "low carb flu" symptoms went on for months, I was dizzy for a long time, I think my brain was learning to burn ketones. Once I adapted, I loved it! I can go for long rides without having to pack a bunch of food or stop to eat. It's so convenient.

[CandidCam]

I have to say that it took my body a very long time to adjust to LC at age 48. My "low carb flu" symptoms went on for months, I was dizzy for a long time, I think my brain was learning to burn ketones. Once I adapted, I loved it! I can go for long rides without having to pack a bunch of food or stop to eat. It's so convenient.

This is great to hear! When I first did Atkins I had ZERO issues adapting to the new lifestyle and working out, but in those days I rarely did more than maybe a 60 minute weight-training workout. I suspect I will have a different experience trying to adapt to already pretty heavy and consistent running and cycling workouts. Part of the reason I'm starting this time of the year is that my race season is mostly over and now it's a matter of building back up the miles at an easier effort.

[Nancy LC]

I have to say that it took my body a very long time to adjust to LC at age 48. My "low carb flu" symptoms went on for months, I was dizzy for a long time, I think my brain was learning to burn ketones. Once I adapted, I loved it! I can go for long rides without having to pack a bunch of food or stop to eat. It's so convenient.
Phinney/Volek say that from low sodium in their books.

[StuartB]

Fascinating discussion for me. I work out with weights regularly, and fairly heavy for someone over 50. I've just started low-carbing and I have already noticed I'm tanking sooner than I was before. I guess each person has to listen to their own body and eat accordingly. I plan on riding across Canada next spring. I'll probably average 110kms/day, which translates into 6500-8500 calories/day. Obviously I will need to be eating carbs. Any suggestions as to which carbs are best for such an output of energy?

[StuartB]

OK, I just read Phinney's take on needing almost no food. I'm a newbie so it's not computing with me yet, and have friends who are actual athletes that carb-load, etc, and say low-carb is idiotic. I don't agree with them, just saying I'm adjusting to a new way of thinking. Still, I'm not sure I will quite on the same page as Phinney by the time I take my trip. Definitely a lot to think about.

[wheeler]

Thanks Nancy--I have learned to eat a lot more salt. People definitely do a double take when they watch me fry 3 or 4 eggs in butter and then heavily salt them. I eat a meal of eggs like that on most days.

[Nancy LC]

OK, I just read Phinney's take on needing almost no food. I'm a newbie so it's not computing with me yet, and have friends who are actual athletes that carb-load, etc, and say low-carb is idiotic. I don't agree with them, just saying I'm adjusting to a new way of thinking. Still, I'm not sure I will quite on the same page as Phinney by the time I take my trip. Definitely a lot to think about.
The guy who won a cross country race was a low carber. Western States 100 – Low Carber Wins Ultramarathon – Steve Phinney and Jeff Volek Study (http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/08/11/western-states-100-low-carber-wins-ultramarathon-steve-phinney-and-jeff-volek-study/)

Two important points:

1) You have to be fully fat-adapted. If you're still a glucose burner it won't work.

2) I think this works more for endurance sports rather than sprints.

As Phinney and Volek write: Isn't it better to have a 40 gallon fuel tank than a 2 gallon fuel tank? If you have good access to your fat stores, that is your fuel, otherwise you have to run off of the small amount of glycogen (carbohydrate) you can store in your muscles. Once you run out of that, you pretty much stop. Most people can't just easily switch back and forth.