Ketosis???!!!

[newcarbgir]

This is weird ... I haven't used my ketostix since I switched from Atkins to CALP nearly three weeks ago. I got them out tonight, with the intention of throwing them away, and just out of idle curiousity I did a test. Apparently - according to the sticks, anyway - I am still in mild ketosis :eek: How is that possible? I had a big helping of potatoes and some chocolate during my RM today!

As far as I remember, the Hellers don't consider it desirable to be in ketosis on this woe. Does this mean I can eat lots more goodies during my RM to get my carb levels up? :yum: I'm guessing not :lol: But I would be interested to know how I can still be apparently in ketosis when I'm scoffing very adequate amounts of nice treats once a day :wiggle:

[SoftaSweet]

When I went to the doctor about a month ago.. I was also in ketosis. The doctor asked me if I had ate the day before, so I am guessing it was more than mild. He said it just meant I was losing weight, and I was at the time.

I would ask Zuleika to answer that question, but I noticed she didn't seemed alarmed when she read it in my journal.

Hope I didn't confuse you even more.

Take Care, Kandi

[Jalera2003]

I have never done Adkins so I don't have ketostix at home but last time I had a urine test I was in moderate ketosis. Hellers don't really talk about it, but I guess it happens on CAD!

[Zuleikaa]

It happens to some CAs on CAD better than it happened to them on Atkins. That's because instead of eating lc foods all day that raise a CA's insulin levels, CAD foos the insulin mechanism by eating carbs once a day for 60 minutes. It's as if those carbs don't exist. Result....Ketosis!!!! It's not detrimental!!!

[newcarbgir]

I gave up on Atkins because I didn't feel well on it. I felt nauseous a lot of the time, and desperately thirsty, despite drinking tons of water, and I was also having problems with an irregular heartbeat. I was assuming that all of that was down to being in ketosis, but I'm not having any problems on CALP so I guess the ketosis wasn't the culprit. Maybe 20 gms a day of carbs just wasn't enough to keep my body ticking over, and whatever I'm having now ... 50?60?70? makes it feel ok ... unless someone has a more scientific explanation for why I felt ill on Atkins but really well :yay: on CALP? It can't just be to do with having higher insulin levels, because my insulin levels must have been massively higher for years when I was eating "normally" than they were when I was on Atkins.

[Zuleikaa]

CAs actually need a higher level of carbs to function well. It's just that insulin has to be controlled at the same time.

[Valkyrie]

It is quite comforting to read your posts about being in Ketosis. When doing Bernstein and Atkins I was never in ketosis but since being on CALP I have been in deep, deep dark purple ketosis for most of the time. By glucose levels are better than they have been before and I feel great. I was wondering how I would get on at the doctors on Tuesday next if he discovered I was in ketosis (as a diabetic they really frown on that) - I think i will just "forget" to take a sample in with me. My doctor HATES low carb. Luckily last time he asked if I was on that "dreadful, awful Atkins" and I could truthfully say, "no". Didn't mention CAD or CALP though :lol:

[newcarbgir]

Yes, Atkins is drawing all the flak in the UK, too. If I tell someone I'm on CALP they just look at me in bemusement, which suits me fine :lol:

Zuleikaa, thanks for all the information ... you are awesome. It's nice to know (at least some of the time) why my body behaves like it does :wiggle:

[potatofree]

CAs actually need a higher level of carbs to function well. It's just that insulin has to be controlled at the same time.

May I ask what this statement is based on? I couldn't find reference to it in either book?

[Zuleikaa]

Potatofree
Throughout the Carbohydrate Addict's Diet book the Hellers mention that CAs derive pleasure from eating carbohydrates, in fact it's one of the symptoms. They also mention that you should never skip the Reward Meal. Also in many interviews and lectures when asked what happens when CAs skip the Reward Meal or why can't they skip it if they want to have better weight loss, the Hellers say that CAs will get irritable and feel weak without the Reward Meal and they might even find themselves bingeing. I infer from those things, and personal and observed experience, that CAs need a certain level of carbs to function well.

[potatofree]

So, basically it's your interpretation of the book, not an actual statement of fact.

[Zuleikaa]

I would say yes, my interpretation, a further explanation by the Hellers, and the experiences of a lot of CADers. So I could call that clinical evidence, lol!!

[IthinkIcan]

I was reading some more today, like going back through and picking up on things that I wanted to "digest" more from the cad book. Anyway, there is reference to this in its own way. It doesn't say "carb addicts need more carbs to function well" ...in that sentence. But here's one example of what it does say........


"The second strategy at your disposal is your Reward Meal. It constitutes a promise, one that you make to yourself and that can cash in on each and every day. "If I can make it through to my Reward Meal," the promise affirms, "I can eat anything I want. I don't have to wait for two wek or a month or until I reach my weight-loss goal before I can eat the foods that give me pleasure"
At your reward meal, you can eat what you want, in the quantities you want. You can eat then today, tomorrow, and every day after that. Any food you desire is never more than a day away.
With your addiction under control and your daily pleasure assured, you will find your battle is much more easier."

To me, and yes this is my interpretation, since when we read, that's what our brain does with the words, it says....eating what you want, if that's high carbs, is a vital key to winning this battle and I will function better because of it.

[potatofree]

But that still is a far cry from saying a carb addict NEEDS "X" amount of carbs. I'm not trying to be difficult, and I just started my second reading of the book since I'm thinking of switching plans. I've also read the Carb Addicts Healthy Heart Program, which has modifications of the first...trying to sort out the differences. That's why I'm being so picky about the wording, I'm just trying to get it all straight. It confuses me a bit when well-meaning people don't preface their statements with "My conclusion is..." or "In my opinion..." because I'm trying to get it in my head the way the Hellers wrote it before I can decide.

I hope I'm not offending anyone.

[lowco]

Carbs have a carbohydrate addict. a difference between an alcoholic and a carbohydrate addict is carbohydrate is NEEDED...BUT alcohol is not. even if vitamins and energy.......a cader will EVENTUALLY fail with a diet that deprives him of sucH. Going on and off the wagon. Thats why yo-yo dieting is mentioned on the cover of CAD and a common trait of a cader .eating 20grams or less and not controlling insulin levels will eveuntually lead to failure (for caders). cad/calps concentrates on insluin surges and not amount of carbs.

[lowco]

sorry the begining of my post is messed up. used up all the space of the quick reply.

[Zuleikaa]

Not offending me. I think everyone should think for themselves and find what works for them. I also believe that the more knowledge you gain, the more likely you are to succeed in your goals.

[IthinkIcan]

:) I am actually so not offended that I am more ..... grateful that there are people out here that keep me thinking and learning more. I read that post after reading some today and I thought...now I have that impression from reading, how did I get from point A to point B, if the book doesn't actually just say that? I am one for knowledge. I want to know all I can ...ie, the library finally limited me the last visit to 3 books on this topic :lol:

[potatofree]

I'm glad I can ask. WhenI first heard of CAD, I was told you can "eat anything you want" at the reward meal..after reading the book, I realized that it was in a rational, balanced way. Unfortunately, I've even been told on this board that you can stuff yourself with all the carbs you want in that hour, and when I asked about the balancing with protein and low-carb veggies, have been told more than once that you don't HAVE to... After re-reading the book, I still see very clear direction to keep the reward meal balanced. In the CAHHP, it's even MORE emphasized...so I don't know where they get the idea they can eat just pasta and sugar! Unless it's from Rachael's description of her meals when she was "discovering" CAD?

[Jalera2003]

Dear Potatofree: In the very first edition of the Carbohydrate Addicts Diet (refered to as CAD here) the Heller's said you could eat anything you wanted at reward meal. I don't have my book here so I can't quote but I know I read something like - have a dessert even two if you want. In the more recent book Carbohydrate Addicts Lifespan Program (called CALP) and in the Carbohydrate Addicts Health Heart book they stress the balanced reward meal. They found with clinical experience that most carb addicts interpreted the reward meal as a carb free for all, instead of a balanced feast (that's their term). Even in a new copy of CAD I bought I found a section on balancing the reward meal. For me the original version of CAD worked well for the first 15-20 lbs lost, then I had to "tighten up", move towards a more CALP eating plan, no diet soda, better balance at reward meal (I am far from perfect there). I think CAD/CALP is a wonderful way of eating, I hope you will give it a try. I believe it is a lifelong plan and as such the amount of flex one has varies from person to person and even from time to time in one persons life. That is why you will find differences presented to you on this board...because we are all individuals...that's the beauty of this plan...if you are a carb addict it will work for you, no matter were you are in you weight loss journey.

That's my two cents worth.

[IthinkIcan]

This was one of the things that perplexed me and I read about a lot before making the switch. Now, I've got only a mere 15 days under my belt so my experience is very limited to say the least. But ..aint there always a but? lol
Anyway ... here's what I have gathered from reading the book, reading other's experiences (journals) and from my own time so far on this.
First off, I have yet to read from one person who has been on this woe for a long period of time and is successful, say its okay to have binges for rms. I have heard them say when an rm isn't as balanced as you'd like it to be, to not beat up yourself over it, that balance comes with time and healing. And I can already see how my body is adjusting and healing ... so the carbs aren't as much of a focus in my rm's. Actually, I also feel that food ...period, is less of a focus today than it was 15 days ago. When I first started CAD, I could think of a zillion things I wanted in my rm and gave it lots of thought in order to decide exactly what I wanted. So that tells me what they say about just keep on keeping on and it will get better, is true.
I read long before starting it, the "difference" in the CAD book vs the CALP, that in cad, it makes no mention of making sure the rm is balanced by 1/3 portions, but in calp, it does. However, cad does say balance the meal sensibly.
Now, my take on it all is this, please note, this is not written in any book, its my thoughts.
When I read the science behind this woe, it makes sense to me that if you wanted nothing but carbs for an rm for the day, it really wouldn't matter too much. It says in the book that insulin is released in 2 stages. The first stage release at the first taste, at an rm is low because your body expects a cm, with low carbs. So if you were to eat say 2 cups of a lc veggies and 8 oz's of meat first, or if it were 3 cookies and a cup of pasta, you're still gonna get the same insulin release. I know a balanced rm is better for me. I get vitimans, minerals and other goodies from foods that aren't empty. It is good for the body. So its good and reasonable for me to try to balance. Does it make a difference in my cravings either way? I'm still an experiment in progress, but so far, it hasn't. Has it made a difference in weight loss for me? So far, not yet. I think for me, I approach this everyday with the idea, I can have whatever and how much I want at that rm. It makes me feel comforted and secure. Most of the time because I give myself this permission, I end up eating a much better balance and eat a whole lot less than I thought I could.
I just keep it simple. Bottom line for ME is, its a process, a journey. I don't set any limits for myself except for the cm rules, 15 min coffee/cream rule and the 60 min rule. I do try to balance the rm, but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen and I'm still content. I don't feel like I've jumped off some wagon, and the horses trampled me too. :)

[potatofree]

In my copy of CAD, although the phrase "eat anything you want" is repeated MANY times, it devotes pp 118-122 almost exclusively to balancing your reward meal to minimize the impact of the carbs. It even has a diagram of the proportions the food should have on your plate....

[Jalera2003]

That's the newer copy.

[newcarbgir]

I just keep it simple. Bottom line for ME is, its a process, a journey. I don't set any limits for myself except for the cm rules, 15 min coffee/cream rule and the 60 min rule. I do try to balance the rm, but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen and I'm still content. I don't feel like I've jumped off some wagon, and the horses trampled me too. :)

IthinkIcan, I find that very comforting! I'm about a week ahead of you on this woe but I think you've got it figured out better than me from a personal point of view. I try and eat balanced RMs every day, and I'm doing reasonably ok at it, but when I don't manage it I feel that I've been naughty :nono: Of course that leads me straight back into a cycle of guilt-depression-despair. If this woe should be teaching us anything, it's that we need to stop punishing ourselves about our eating. For myself, I find that much more difficult than maintaining the discipline of a diet. That's maybe not too surprising ... my mother was obsessed with dieting and weight all through my childhood, and actually sent a note to my school when I was six :exclm: saying that I shouldn't have dessert. I was just a slightly plump kid at the time, nothing more. Ever since then, I've been yo-yoing ... 45 years of my life feeling obsessed with and guilty about food! I guess it's not surprising that it takes more than three weeks to change that kind of mindset. Thanks for your good sense :wiggle: