free-form amino acids

[bobptz]

Are free-form amino acids the best/fastest way to get protein?

Lately I have been reading that free-form amino acids are
poorly utilized by the body for protein synthesis. Is it
better to consume protein in the form of peptides (the best
method) or eat whole, intact protein?

Is it true that in fact it may be dangerous to eat free-form
amino acids if they come from hydrolyzed protein? This is
because during protein hybridization, free glutamic acid (MSG)
is created. MSG is toxic.

Thanks

Bob Pitatzidis

[Klmok]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:01:46 +0300, <bobptz@yahoo.gr> wrote:

>Are free-form amino acids the best/fastest way to get
>protein?
>
>
>
>Lately I have been reading that free-form amino acids are
>poorly utilized by the body for protein synthesis. Is it
>better to consume protein in the form of peptides (the best
>method) or eat whole, intact protein?
>
>
>
>Is it true that in fact it may be dangerous to eat free-form
>amino acids if they come from hydrolyzed protein? This is
>because during protein hybridization, free glutamic acid
>(MSG) is created. MSG is toxic.
>
>
>
==============
From: http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion-
/pregastric/taste.html

The sense of taste is equivalent to excitation of taste
receptors, and receptors for a large number of specific
chemicals have been identified that contribute to the
reception of taste. These include receptors for such chemicals
as sodium, potassium, chloride, glutamate and adenosine.
Despite this complexity, five types of tastes are commonly
recognized:

Salty Sour Sweet Bitter Umami The umami taste is that of
monosodium glutamate and has recently been recognized as a
unique taste, as it cannot be elicited by any combination of
the other four taste types. Glutamate is present in a
variety of protein-rich foods, and particularly abundant in
aged cheese.

======================

I just l;earned about Umami. Haven't given it much
thought yet.

As for free form amino acids my philisophy is to work with
dietary practices that have evolved from before we became H
sapiens. Eat whole food.

This amino acid supplements is a very recent phenomen. If free
amino acids can pass so easily from the gut into the
bloodstream what is there to prevent movement in the reverse
direction, from the bloodstream into the gut? It doesn't An
active mechanism is involved to cross that barrier. Since our
gut had not evolved to handle free amino acids this "food" is
therefore an un-natural part of our diet. On the other hand
free amino acids no doubt exist in our system and these are
promptly dealt with as they are formed. Their concentration in
any part of our system is an integral part of our bio-feedback
mechanism. By introducing free amino acids this bio-feedback
mechanism will undoubtedly be miscalibrated and the wrong
feedback signals result. I am not a health care worker to want
to go into what can go wrong. The fact that free amino acids
as a dietary sulplement has not found popular following speaks
for itself. At best it does no harm except to your bank
balance. At worst it can do real harm.

[Pbeyer]

bobptz@yahoo.gr wrote:

> Are free-form amino acids the best/fastest way to get
> protein?
>
> Lately I have been reading that free-form amino acids are
> poorly utilized by the body for protein synthesis. Is it
> better to consume protein in the form of peptides (the best
> method) or eat whole, intact protein?
>
> Is it true that in fact it may be dangerous to eat free-form
> amino acids if they come from hydrolyzed protein? This is
> because during protein hybridization, free glutamic acid
> (MSG) is created. MSG is toxic.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bob Pitatzidis

Bob-- This sound like is simply an old sales gobble gook,
creating more nonsense to sell products. We digest regular
dietary proteins to amino acids and small peptides which are
absorbed very, very efficiently. We do not need to ingest
amino acids or peptides as such unless there are very severe
protein digestive deficiencies (like no pancreas and no
stomach) Pete

[bobptz]

I am sorry if I ask a more simple answer in more plain
English.

According to this link (http://www.futuredynamicadvantage.com-
/research/peptide_facts.html), which references some research,
peptides are absorbed much quicker that free form amino acids
or pure protein. Is this true or not?

I want to eat more protein, especially after heavy work outs,
in order to achieve 150 gr/day intake.

Thanks

Bob


<bobptz@yahoo.gr> wrote in message
news:1061740860.587749@athprx02...
> Are free-form amino acids the best/fastest way to get
> protein?
>
>
>
> Lately I have been reading that free-form amino acids are
> poorly utilized
by
> the body for protein synthesis. Is it better to consume
> protein in the
form
> of peptides (the best method) or eat whole, intact protein?
>
>
>
> Is it true that in fact it may be dangerous to eat free-form
> amino acids
if
> they come from hydrolyzed protein? This is because during
> protein hybridization, free glutamic acid (MSG) is created.
> MSG is toxic.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Bob Pitatzidis

[Mattlb]

klmok wrote:
>
> On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:01:46 +0300, <bobptz@yahoo.gr> wrote:
>
> >Are free-form amino acids the best/fastest way to get
> >protein? Lately I have been reading that free-form amino
> >acids are poorly utilized by the body for protein
> >synthesis. Is it better to consume protein in the form of
> >peptides (the best method) or eat whole, intact protein?

<snip>

> This amino acid supplements is a very recent phenomen. If
> free amino acids can pass so easily from the gut into the
> bloodstream what is there to prevent movement in the reverse
> direction, from the bloodstream into the gut?

The same thing that stops them moving from the gut into
the blood without specific carrier proteins i.e. the
cell membrane.

> It doesn't An active mechanism is involved to cross that
> barrier. Since our gut had not evolved to handle free
> amino acids this "food" is therefore an un-natural part of
> our diet.

Digestion in the stomach and duodenum generates peptides;
exopeptidase enzymes in the pancreas and intestinal brush
border cells chop individual amino acids off peptides. What
enters the blood from the gut is amino acids. If you eat amino
acids they just get there quicker. Small amounts of di or
tripeptides are absorbed into the mucosal cells where they are
cleaved into amino acids which enter the blood. Entry of
oligopeptides into the blood is abnormal and indicative of a
leaky gut (or being a baby).

> On the other hand free amino acids no doubt exist in our
> system and these are promptly dealt with as they are formed.
> Their concentration in any part of our system is an integral
> part of our bio-feedback mechanism. By introducing free
> amino acids this bio-feedback mechanism will undoubtedly be
> miscalibrated and the wrong feedback signals result.

Bio-feedback usually refers to using observation of biometric
data as a way to alter it consciously. I assume you don't mean
that. You can't cause wrong feedback signals (whatever that
means) by eating amino acids.

> I am not a health care worker to want to go into what can go
> wrong. The fact that free amino acids as a dietary
> sulplement has not found popular following speaks for
> itself. At best it does no harm except to your bank balance.
> At worst it can do real harm.

Mixed amino acid supplements can't do any harm. Taking large
amounts of just one or two could.

MattLB

[Pbeyer]

bobptz@yahoo.gr wrote:

> I am sorry if I ask a more simple answer in more plain
> English.
>
> According to this link (http://www.futuredynamicadvantage.c-
> om/research/peptide_facts.html), which references some
> research, peptides are absorbed much quicker that free form
> amino acids or pure protein. Is this true or not?

Summariziing from several research papers from the '80's, The
net nitrogen intake may be slightly faster with small
peptides than most combinations of amino acids. But it
depends on which peptides and which blend of, or what single
amino acids are tested.

The overall issue is still that it is not necessary to take
additional amino acids or peptides. It's easy to take in 150
grams of high quality protein from foods and meet your amino
acid requirements-- if you really need 150 grams. Pete

[bobptz]

>>>
It's easy to take in 150 grams of high quality protein from
foods and meet your amino acid requirements-- <<< I hope so
but let me dissagree here.

I don't have any references, but it was my belief that you
cannot absorb more than 25-30 grams of protein from a single
meal. This means that I need to have 5 high protein meals per
day (5*30=150). Although it is possible, I find it extremely
difficult to eat fish/eggs/meat 5 times per day, every single
day for 2-3 years.

What I find feasible is eat at least 2-3 protein (regular
food) meals in a day, which will give me not more than 90
grams. 1-2 smaller meals with fruits only. Then 2 meals with
protein supplement (especially after the work out) will add up
to 150 grams.

Thanks Bob

[Klmok]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:36:13 +0100, MattLB
<mattlb@FAKEBITangelfire.com> wrote:

>
>Digestion in the stomach and duodenum generates peptides;
>exopeptidase enzymes in the pancreas and intestinal brush
>border cells chop individual amino acids off peptides.

> What enters the blood from the gut is amino acids. If you
> eat amino acids they just get there quicker. Small
> amounts of di or tripeptides are absorbed into the
> mucosal cells where they are cleaved into amino acids
> which enter the blood.

Do you have a URL link to a "textbook standard" description of
this? The biochem and molecular biology books I have read have
been silent on the size of peptides that are absorbed by the
gut. The only source I came across was a vendor of dietary
supplements for extreme sports and that is not a peer review
source. This source said that mono amino acids are hardly
absorbed. More than 90 percent is absorbed as dipeptides and
the balance as tripeptides. That sound more likely as mono
amino acids are too small and could pass through the cell
membrane too easily, ie leak in and out freely.

>Entry of oligopeptides into the blood is abnormal and
>indicative of a leaky gut (or being a baby).

Yes I do have a "leaky gut" that results in Chronic Fatigue
Syndrome. Fortunately I have a pretty good idea of what foods
I must avoid (soy, gluten, legumes, etc.) This peptide size
absorbtion does interest me a lot.
>

>
>Bio-feedback usually refers to using observation of biometric
>data as a way to alter it consciously. I assume you don't
>mean that. You can't cause wrong feedback signals (whatever
>that means) by eating amino acids.

Oh yes I believe it does. Everything in our body that
participates in the life process is in dynamic equilibrium.
All you have to be is dead for a few seconds to have
everything fall apart. On a more mundane level over dosing on
vitamins and minerals resets your body's utilization of them
from absorbtion tresholds to how the body disposes of them.
The basic fact remains that our body needs only a specific
amount of a bioactive component. A lack of it causes a
deficiency disease. But once the correct amount is supplied
overdosing causes some form of negative if not toxic reaction.

On dosing amino acid supplements instead of whole food my "gut
feeeling" is that the concentration of amino acids is an
important part of the digestive feedback mechanism that tells
the gut what or what not to do, like secreting enzyme, gut
motility, mucus secretion, etc. Its not unlike eating baby
food. The gut just doesn't feel right and that sends
contradictory signals to the brain on many levels
- salivating, satiety, etc. My idea of a healthy diet is where
I can enjoy a regular meal and not think about food
afterwards.
>
>
>Mixed amino acid supplements can't do any harm. Taking large
>amounts of just one or two could.
>
My other reservation is that amino acid supplements are made
from bacterial cultures, not from meat extracts. There is no
way they can be purified 100%.

Anyway I don't take dietary supplements (except vitamins once
or twice a fortnight) or follow special health enhancing
diets. So I won't go into those discussions. I must be one of
the original "eat natural" types and have a long standing
adversion against food I can't recognise as once having a life
of its own in some farm. But mainly because I can afford to
buy only food from the grocery shop.

I am 61 and can easily pass for someone 15 years younger. I am
in pretty good health so I think I have eaten right and lived
ok. Except for 50 years of barely tolerable Chronic Fatigue
where I looked healthy and always tested healthy. But that is
another long story. Drat. All it was was food intolerance.

[Pbeyer]

bobptz@yahoo.gr wrote:

> >>>
> It's easy to take in 150 grams of high quality protein from
> foods and meet your amino acid requirements-- <<< I hope so
> but let me dissagree here.
>
> I don't have any references, but it was my belief that you
> cannot absorb more than 25-30 grams of protein from a single
> meal. This means that I need to have 5 high protein meals
> per day (5*30=150). Although it is possible, I find it
> extremely difficult to eat fish/eggs/meat 5 times per day,
> every single day for 2-3 years.
>
> What I find feasible is eat at least 2-3 protein (regular
> food) meals in a day, which will give me not more than 90
> grams. 1-2 smaller meals with fruits only. Then 2 meals with
> protein supplement (especially after the work out) will add
> up to 150 gram

> Thanks Bob

Whoever is telling you the 30 grams per meal absorption info
is not right. An 8 oz steak, for example, would provide about
55 grams protein and essentially all of it would be absorbed.
If you eat 3 meals and a snack or two with meats fish and /or
dairy, it would be easy to get 150 grams-- again if that were
really necessary. Pete

[Mattlb]

klmok wrote:
>
> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:36:13 +0100, MattLB
> <mattlb@FAKEBITangelfire.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Digestion in the stomach and duodenum generates peptides;
> >exopeptidase enzymes in the pancreas and intestinal brush
> >border cells chop individual amino acids off peptides.
>
> > What enters the blood from the gut is amino acids. If you
> > eat amino acids they just get there quicker. Small amounts
> > of di or tripeptides are absorbed into the mucosal cells
> > where they are cleaved into amino acids which enter the
> > blood.
>
> Do you have a URL link to a "textbook standard" description
> of this?

This link is quite good
http://hsc.virginia.edu/med-ed/phys/pdf/Dig_abs.pdf

> The biochem and molecular biology books I have read have
> been silent on the size of peptides that are absorbed by
> the gut.

You're probably better off with physiology textbooks for this.

> The only source I came across was a vendor of dietary
> supplements for extreme sports and that is not a peer
> review source. This source said that mono amino acids are
> hardly absorbed. More than 90 percent is absorbed as
> dipeptides and the balance as tripeptides.

That sounds far too high. I don't know what the proportions
are, but there are too many genes encoding free amino acid
transporters for it to be worth only 10%. Digestion can't help
but generate free amino acids so there has to be a way to
absorb them (evolution wouldn't be so wasteful).

A complicating factor, of course, is that a tri-peptide is
three amino acids, so you can absorb three times as much
in one go. The absorption of peptides and amino acids
isn't competitive, so both can be going on at once. In
fact this paper

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/76505845-
/HTMLSTART

suggests that free amino acid uptake can be enhanced by
di-peptide uptake.

It's possible that on a weight for weight basis more amino
acids are taken up from gut to gut lining as di- or
tri-peptides than free during normal digestion, but there's no
reason that should have any bearing on how well free amino
acids are absorbed when eaten. There are two systems one for
peptides, one for free and it's not an either/or, it's both.

In summary, whether you ate a gram of peptides or a gram of
free aminos, I would expect more or less complete absorption.

> That sound more likely as mono amino acids are too small and
> could pass through the cell membrane too easily, ie leak in
> and out freely.

Amino acids can't cross membranes because they are charged.
They all have to be transported by one carrier or another.

> >Entry of oligopeptides into the blood is abnormal and
> >indicative of a leaky gut (or being a baby).
>
> Yes I do have a "leaky gut" that results in Chronic Fatigue
> Syndrome. Fortunately I have a pretty good idea of what
> foods I must avoid (soy, gluten, legumes, etc.) This peptide
> size absorbtion does interest me a lot.

Free glutamine is used as a treatment for leaky gut, because
it is the principal fuel source for intestinal cells
(glutamine dipeptides are just as good).

> >Bio-feedback usually refers to using observation of
> >biometric data as a way to alter it consciously. I assume
> >you don't mean that. You can't cause wrong feedback signals
> >(whatever that means) by eating amino acids.
>
> Oh yes I believe it does. Everything in our body that
> participates in the life process is in dynamic equilibrium.
> All you have to be is dead for a few seconds to have
> everything fall apart. On a more mundane level over dosing
> on vitamins and minerals resets your body's utilization of
> them from absorbtion tresholds to how the body disposes of
> them. The basic fact remains that our body needs only a
> specific amount of a bioactive component. A lack of it
> causes a deficiency disease. But once the correct amount is
> supplied overdosing causes some form of negative if not
> toxic reaction.

It's hard to overdose on food, or the components of it
(although there are plenty who seem to try). There's no
"correct" amino acid level for the body, since amino acids
are usually converted to something else pretty quickly, just
as a matter of course. Free amino acids have limited use. The
liver skims whatever's in the blood coming from the gut and
there'll be no difference from its point of view between a
meal of free amino acids and one of meat. Only if the mix is
skewed towards far more of one amino acid than the others can
you get problems.

> On dosing amino acid supplements instead of whole food my
> "gut feeeling" is that the concentration of amino acids is
> an important part of the digestive feedback mechanism that
> tells the gut what or what not to do, like secreting enzyme,
> gut motility, mucus secretion, etc.

This is true, the appearance of free amino acids controls
movement of the food through the digestive system. Eating
free amino acids, just speeds things up, because no digestion
is needed.

> >Mixed amino acid supplements can't do any harm. Taking
> >large amounts of just one or two could.
> >
> My other reservation is that amino acid supplements are made
> from bacterial cultures, not from meat extracts. There is no
> way they can be purified 100%.

I can't honestly say I've seen bacterial source aminos, but
you may have. I've only ever seen milk protein hydrolysates
(mixed aminos) or chemically synthesised individual ones.

MattLB

[Mooshie Pe]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:06:12 +0300, <bobptz@yahoo.gr> posted:

>I am sorry if I ask a more simple answer in more plain
>English.
>
>
>
>According to this link (http://www.futuredynamicadvantage.co-
>m/research/peptide_facts.html), which references some
>research, peptides are absorbed much quicker that free form
>amino acids or pure protein. Is this true or not?
>
>
>
>I want to eat more protein, especially after heavy work outs,
>in order to achieve 150 gr/day intake.

So? Eat more protein then. Meat, dairy, beans.