meet report...still learning

[Will]

Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue powerlifting.
Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.

First off, I am crappy at weight management. I get paranoid
and overdo the weight cutting measures the week before a
meet...although I think the scale I rely on at home may be
weighing a little heavy as well. Whatever the exact reasons, I
competed in the 220 lb class weighing in at...

211. (At a hair over 6 feet tall)

Yikes! I was in the mid 220s at the start of the month. That
shook me up a bit. And while it's no excuse, my coach bailed
on me at the last minute.

Despite the weight loss I didn't feel too bad but my bench
shirt felt really loose. My warmup with 275 touched easily,
I'm used to needing at least 315 to be sure to touch.

Opened at 319...smoked it. Figured I'd be good for 353.
Figured wrong. First time I'm told I brought it down too high
on my chest. Got it halfway up and stalled out. Third attempt
hit where it should but stalled out again, and I probably cut
the pause short anyway. Crap. I've done a solid 350 in the
gym, but I weighed a lot more than 211 at the time. My bench
shirt didn't leave a single mark on my body, a sure sign it's
too loose now.

At least I hit my goal of 1.5x bodyweight at a meet...but this
is not how I wanted to do it.

Similar story for the deadlift. With no coach and feeling so
underweight I decided to stick with my play it safe, raw
attempt strategy. Opened with 408 and got it ok. Next was 424,
double bodyweight. Got it, but it was way harder than it
should have been. I got it moving and just refused to stop
despite fighting it for what felt like an eternity...probably
6 seconds or so. Got a lot of support from the crowd. It
really says something about the comraderie of powerlifting
that I got a ton of applause and personal congratulations for
busting my butt to complete what is quite frankly a very
unimpressive lift. Just for the hell of it I asked for 452 for
my third and stuffed myself into my Metal Deadlifter as fast
as I could. Got the bar to my knees and tried my damnedest not
to give up on it as I fought the straps until the fingers on
my right hand peeled open. I think I need some custom work to
get a deadlift suit that works for me, a 54 Metal is way too
loose on my hips and thighs but the straps on the 52 kill me.

So, mixed feelings at the end of the day. Once again I seem to
have left my best lifts in the gym, but at least I'm
improving. I need to be a lot less stupid about weight
management and figure out how to peak for meets rather than
test days in the gym. I am starting to think the instensity
during the last two weeks of the peaking phase in Sheiko is
just too low, at least for me. It feels strange going into a
meet not having lifted anything really heavy for two weeks,
especially considering i do better on test days in the middle
of normal training weeks.

And next meet I'm lifting at whatever I weigh fully fed, even
if it means lifting in the 242's at 220.7.

[Whit]

"Will" <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:satterwill-213CA8.20045823082003@news.fu-berlin.de...
> Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue powerlifting.
> Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
>
> First off, I am crappy at weight management. I get paranoid
> and overdo the weight cutting measures the week before a
> meet...although I think the scale I rely on at home may be
> weighing a little heavy as well. Whatever the exact reasons,
> I competed in the 220 lb class weighing in at...
>
> 211. (At a hair over 6 feet tall)
>
> Yikes! I was in the mid 220s at the start of the month. That
> shook me up a bit. And while it's no excuse, my coach bailed
> on me at the last minute.
>
> Despite the weight loss I didn't feel too bad but my bench
> shirt felt really loose. My warmup with 275 touched easily,
> I'm used to needing at least 315 to be sure to touch.
>
> Opened at 319...smoked it. Figured I'd be good for 353.
> Figured wrong. First time I'm told I brought it down too
> high on my chest. Got it halfway up and stalled out. Third
> attempt hit where it should but stalled out again, and I
> probably cut the pause short anyway. Crap. I've done a solid
> 350 in the gym, but I weighed a lot more than 211 at the
> time. My bench shirt didn't leave a single mark on my body,
> a sure sign it's too loose now.
>
> At least I hit my goal of 1.5x bodyweight at a meet...but
> this is not how I wanted to do it.
>
> Similar story for the deadlift. With no coach and feeling so
> underweight I decided to stick with my play it safe, raw
> attempt strategy. Opened with 408 and got it ok. Next was
> 424, double bodyweight. Got it, but it was way harder than
> it should have been. I got it moving and just refused to
> stop despite fighting it for what felt like an
> eternity...probably 6 seconds or so. Got a lot of support
> from the crowd. It really says something about the
> comraderie of powerlifting that I got a ton of applause and
> personal congratulations for busting my butt to complete
> what is quite frankly a very unimpressive lift. Just for the
> hell of it I asked for 452 for my third and stuffed myself
> into my Metal Deadlifter as fast as I could. Got the bar to
> my knees and tried my damnedest not to give up on it as I
> fought the straps until the fingers on my right hand peeled
> open. I think I need some custom work to get a deadlift suit
> that works for me, a 54 Metal is way too loose on my hips
> and thighs but the straps on the 52 kill me.
>
> So, mixed feelings at the end of the day. Once again I seem
> to have left my best lifts in the gym, but at least I'm
> improving. I need to be a lot less stupid about weight
> management and figure out how to peak for meets rather than
> test days in the gym. I am starting to think the instensity
> during the last two weeks of the peaking phase in Sheiko is
> just too low, at least for me. It feels strange going into a
> meet not having lifted anything really heavy for two weeks,
> especially considering i do better on test days in the
> middle of normal training weeks.
>
> And next meet I'm lifting at whatever I weigh fully fed,
> even if it means lifting in the 242's at 220.7.

your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.

you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you
"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt

whit

[Keith Hobm]

In article
<satterwill-213CA8.20045823082003@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
<satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:

> Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue powerlifting.
> Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
>
> First off, I am crappy at weight management. I get paranoid
> and overdo the weight cutting measures the week before a
> meet...although I think the scale I rely on at home may be
> weighing a little heavy as well. Whatever the exact reasons,
> I competed in the 220 lb class weighing in at...
>
> 211. (At a hair over 6 feet tall)

Jeez. How do you do that?
>
> Yikes! I was in the mid 220s at the start of the month. That
> shook me up a bit. And while it's no excuse, my coach bailed
> on me at the last minute.
>
> Despite the weight loss I didn't feel too bad but my bench
> shirt felt really loose. My warmup with 275 touched easily,
> I'm used to needing at least 315 to be sure to touch.
>
> Opened at 319...smoked it. Figured I'd be good for 353.
> Figured wrong. First time I'm told I brought it down too
> high on my chest. Got it halfway up and stalled out. Third
> attempt hit where it should but stalled out again, and I
> probably cut the pause short anyway. Crap. I've done a solid
> 350 in the gym, but I weighed a lot more than 211 at the
> time. My bench shirt didn't leave a single mark on my body,
> a sure sign it's too loose now.
>
> At least I hit my goal of 1.5x bodyweight at a meet...but
> this is not how I wanted to do it.
>
> Similar story for the deadlift. With no coach and feeling so
> underweight I decided to stick with my play it safe, raw
> attempt strategy. Opened with 408 and got it ok. Next was
> 424, double bodyweight. Got it, but it was way harder than
> it should have been. I got it moving and just refused to
> stop despite fighting it for what felt like an
> eternity...probably 6 seconds or so. Got a lot of support
> from the crowd. It really says something about the
> comraderie of powerlifting that I got a ton of applause and
> personal congratulations for busting my butt to complete
> what is quite frankly a very unimpressive lift. Just for the
> hell of it I asked for 452 for my third and stuffed myself
> into my Metal Deadlifter as fast as I could. Got the bar to
> my knees and tried my damnedest not to give up on it as I
> fought the straps until the fingers on my right hand peeled
> open. I think I need some custom work to get a deadlift suit
> that works for me, a 54 Metal is way too loose on my hips
> and thighs but the straps on the 52 kill me.
>
> So, mixed feelings at the end of the day. Once again I seem
> to have left my best lifts in the gym, but at least I'm
> improving. I need to be a lot less stupid about weight
> management and figure out how to peak for meets rather than
> test days in the gym. I am starting to think the instensity
> during the last two weeks of the peaking phase in Sheiko is
> just too low, at least for me. It feels strange going into a
> meet not having lifted anything really heavy for two weeks,
> especially considering i do better on test days in the
> middle of normal training weeks.
>
> And next meet I'm lifting at whatever I weigh fully fed,
> even if it means lifting in the 242's at 220.7.

I've felt that about the Sheiko as well. I actually go in
every day and do some speed work during the last two weeks and
introduce plyos as well. But I think the problem might be
weight control more than the routine. It appears you are the
type that drops a pile of weight prior to a meet. Bob Mann
does the same and always seems stronger in the gym than he
shows at the meet. The problem I think is learning to relax
prior to the meet.

But still - it was a good day!

[Jeff Finla]

Will <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue powerlifting.
> Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
>
> First off, I am crappy at weight management. I get paranoid
> and overdo the weight cutting measures the week before a
> meet...although I think the scale I rely on at home may be
> weighing a little heavy as well. Whatever the exact reasons,
> I competed in the 220 lb class weighing in at...
>
> 211. (At a hair over 6 feet tall)

When did you weigh in; meet day or day before?

> Yikes! I was in the mid 220s at the start of the month. That
> shook me up a bit. And while it's no excuse, my coach bailed
> on me at the last minute.
>
> Despite the weight loss I didn't feel too bad but my bench
> shirt felt really loose. My warmup with 275 touched easily,
> I'm used to needing at least 315 to be sure to touch.

Seems like losing a few pounds (mostly water??) wouldn't make
that much difference. Wash and dry the shirt before the meet.

> Opened at 319...smoked it. Figured I'd be good for 353.
> Figured wrong. First time I'm told I brought it down too
> high on my chest. Got it halfway up and stalled out. Third
> attempt hit where it should but stalled out again, and I
> probably cut the pause short anyway. Crap. I've done a solid
> 350 in the gym, but I weighed a lot more than 211 at the
> time. My bench shirt didn't leave a single mark on my body,
> a sure sign it's too loose now.

Slowing your descent a little may help you touch where you
want more consistently. If that was a one time thing then
nevermind.

> At least I hit my goal of 1.5x bodyweight at a meet...but
> this is not how I wanted to do it.
>
> Similar story for the deadlift. With no coach and feeling so
> underweight I decided to stick with my play it safe, raw
> attempt strategy. Opened with 408 and got it ok. Next was
> 424, double bodyweight. Got it, but it was way harder than
> it should have been. I got it moving and just refused to
> stop despite fighting it for what felt like an
> eternity...probably 6 seconds or so. Got a lot of support
> from the crowd. It really says something about the
> comraderie of powerlifting that I got a ton of applause and
> personal congratulations for busting my butt to complete
> what is quite frankly a very unimpressive lift. Just for the
> hell of it I asked for 452 for my third and stuffed myself
> into my Metal Deadlifter as fast as I could. Got the bar to
> my knees and tried my damnedest not to give up on it as I
> fought the straps until the fingers on my right hand peeled
> open. I think I need some custom work to get a deadlift suit
> that works for me, a 54 Metal is way too loose on my hips
> and thighs but the straps on the 52 kill me.
-- Fine job with 424 lb!

Get the straps on the 52 loosened. Or get the straps tightened
on the 54.

> So, mixed feelings at the end of the day. Once again I seem
> to have left my best lifts in the gym, but at least I'm
> improving. I need to be a lot less stupid about weight
> management and figure out how to peak for meets rather than
> test days in the gym. I am starting to think the instensity
> during the last two weeks of the peaking phase in Sheiko is
> just too low, at least for me. It feels strange going into a
> meet not having lifted anything really heavy for two weeks,
> especially considering i do better on test days in the
> middle of normal training weeks.

Make some adjustments or try another routine.

> And next meet I'm lifting at whatever I weigh fully fed,
> even if it means lifting in the 242's at 220.7.

Try it and you might end up at 220 anyway. :)

Rest up. Get back at it in a few days.

Jeff out ...

[John M . W]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>
>your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
>
>you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you
>"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt

Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But
it ignores that some people have better upper body strength,
while others have better lower body strength.

Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting associations.
The best totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by
the same person, but that person almost never has the best
bench press.

[Will]

In article <bi9a7r$6ll88$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de>,
"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:

> your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.

I know. I'm working on it. But, I've got short arms, too.

> you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you
> "smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt

Actually 211 bw (though probably more like 218 by meet time),
and the shirt was next to useless.

[Will]

In article <khobman-2308032155110001@192.168.1.100>,
khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

> In article
> <satterwill-213CA8.20045823082003@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
> <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> > Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue
> > powerlifting. Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
> >
> > First off, I am crappy at weight management. I get
> > paranoid and overdo the weight cutting measures the week
> > before a meet...although I think the scale I rely on at
> > home may be weighing a little heavy as well. Whatever
> > the exact reasons, I competed in the 220 lb class
> > weighing in at...
> >
> > 211. (At a hair over 6 feet tall)
>
> Jeez. How do you do that?

Dunno...had been low-carbing for a while and seem to be losing
my appetite...I even did a deliberate mini carb-up the night
before my weigh in because I knew I had a cushion (although I
thought it was much smaller than it turned out to be). Add in
some intense job-related stress over the last three days, a
laxative, and a long drive through the central valley heat and
voila, stick-boy.

[snip]

> > So, mixed feelings at the end of the day. Once again I
> > seem to have left my best lifts in the gym, but at least
> > I'm improving. I need to be a lot less stupid about weight
> > management and figure out how to peak for meets rather
> > than test days in the gym. I am starting to think the
> > instensity during the last two weeks of the peaking phase
> > in Sheiko is just too low, at least for me. It feels
> > strange going into a meet not having lifted anything
> > really heavy for two weeks, especially considering i do
> > better on test days in the middle of normal training
> > weeks.
> >
> > And next meet I'm lifting at whatever I weigh fully fed,
> > even if it means lifting in the 242's at 220.7.
>
> I've felt that about the Sheiko as well. I actually go in
> every day and do some speed work during the last two weeks
> and introduce plyos as well. But I think the problem might
> be weight control more than the routine. It appears you are
> the type that drops a pile of weight prior to a meet. Bob
> Mann does the same and always seems stronger in the gym than
> he shows at the meet. The problem I think is learning to
> relax prior to the meet.

No doubt, the real killer is the weight loss. But I wonder if
the combination of weight loss and relative disuse of my
muscles results in a bigger loss than I would get from the
weight loss alone...wonder if I need more of a
"muscle-sparing" routine.

> But still - it was a good day!

It was an okay day. You almost had me ready to try 500 on my
last attempt. Maybe at 230, with more practice in the suit,
and just the right attitude...

But it beats being the big fish in the tiny pond of my school
gym, good to go out there and push myself and see what I've
really got when it counts. Hoepfully next time I'll have more.

Looking forward to getting your input on technique in person.
Jason (I think) yelled "hips" at me during my last deadlift,
but I wasn't sure exactly what he wanted me to do with them.
Seemed like if I shot them forward at that point I'd get
called for hitching.

[Whit]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:78cgkv4753b24kh5qemi8ln4i5m3fk8dvl@4ax.com...
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >
> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> >
> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you
> >"smoked" a
319
> >bp, albeit with a shirt
>
> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors that.
> But it ignores that some people have better upper body
> strength, while others have better lower body strength.
>

i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
training related.

i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in
relation to a reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
since they compete in bench and dead (and squat)

it's not disproportional for many, but it's disproportional
vis a visw powerlifting, or push-pull meets.

whit

> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting associations.
> The best totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by
> the same person, but that person almost never has the best
> bench press.

[Whit]

"Will" <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:satterwill-2A6179.20504623082003@news.fu-berlin.de...
> In article <bi9a7r$6ll88$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>
> > your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
>
> I know. I'm working on it. But, I've got short arms, too.
>

well, that would help your bench.

> > you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but
> > you "smoked" a
319
> > bp, albeit with a shirt
>
> Actually 211 bw (though probably more like 218 by meet
> time), and the shirt was next to useless.

i meant 211. typo. if the shirt was next to useless, that
makes the #'s more disproportional.

whit

[Keith Hobm]

In article
<satterwill-1AA825.21245323082003@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
<satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> No doubt, the real killer is the weight loss. But I wonder
> if the combination of weight loss and relative disuse of my
> muscles results in a bigger loss than I would get from the
> weight loss alone...wonder if I need more of a
> "muscle-sparing" routine.

I don't think its an issue of muscle wasting away. When you
lose weight like that its water. The combination of water loss
and nerves could impair motor unit recruitment or at least the
timing of it. And your neural inputs are relaxed during the
last two weeks, which is why I like the speed work and plyos
to maximize neural inputs.
>
>
> > But still - it was a good day!
>
> It was an okay day. You almost had me ready to try 500 on my
> last attempt. Maybe at 230, with more practice in the suit,
> and just the right attitude...
>
> But it beats being the big fish in the tiny pond of my
> school gym, good to go out there and push myself and see
> what I've really got when it counts. Hoepfully next time
> I'll have more.
>
> Looking forward to getting your input on technique in
> person. Jason (I think) yelled "hips" at me during my last
> deadlift, but I wasn't sure exactly what he wanted me to do
> with them. Seemed like if I shot them forward at that point
> I'd get called for hitching.

Only if you lower the bar at all or rest it on the thighs. If
the bar is over the knees you can quit worrying about lifting
it and drive the hips forward. Which was what Jason was
getting at I suspect.

I remember being amazed in my second meet when I pulled 585
or so above the knees and couldn't lock it out. I wouldn't
have believed I could get the bar there and not get the lift.
But it was a meet where I dropped down to 208 lbs from 221 in
24 hours. The water loss really screwed me up and I felt it
the most in the deadlift. I think you were fighting water
problems and they really screwed you up. And the laxative is
not a good idea!

:^)

--
Keith Hobman

The email address above is a spam sink - no longer monitored

[Aaron]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:78cgkv4753b24kh5qemi8ln4i5m3fk8dvl@4ax.com...
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >
> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> >
> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you
> >"smoked" a
319
> >bp, albeit with a shirt
>
> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors that.
> But it ignores that some people have better upper body
> strength, while others have better lower body strength.
>
> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting associations.
> The best totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by
> the same person, but that person almost never has the best
> bench press.

not nessecarily upper or lower body strength. A good
deadlifter will have long arms and short legs (which provides
an advantage to squat as well). A bencher will have short
arms. THe IPF 52kg record holder (cant remember his name) has
squatted 300, benched 177.5 but struggles getting >140kg
deadlift cos hes a dwarf and the body structure doesnt allow a
decent lift. Coan is a deadlifter and a squatter, but his
bench is comparably lower (but not tiny)
--
Aaron

[Will]

In article <bi9cru$6q9mb$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de>,
"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:

> "Will" <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:satterwill-2A6179.20504623082003@news.fu-berlin.de...
> > In article <bi9a7r$6ll88$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >
> > > your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> >
> > I know. I'm working on it. But, I've got short arms, too.
> >
>
> well, that would help your bench.

And hurt the deadlift. I have to squat real low to grab the
bar so my leverage at the start is not so good. It's like the
average person my height deadlifting off 1" blocks minimum,
probably more like 2".

[John M . W]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:

>
>"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>wrote in message
>news:78cgkv4753b24kh5qemi8ln4i5m3fk8dvl@4ax.com...
>> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
>> >
>> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but
>> >you "smoked" a
>319
>> >bp, albeit with a shirt
>>
>> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
>> thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors that.
>> But it ignores that some people have better upper body
>> strength, while others have better lower body strength.
>>
>
>i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
>training related.
>
>i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in
>relation to a reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
>since they compete in bench and dead (and squat)
>
>it's not disproportional for many, but it's disproportional
>vis a visw powerlifting, or push-pull meets.

No. If you read what I said below ...

>> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting associations.
>> The best totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by
>> the same person, but that person almost never has the best
>> bench press.

... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a
similar distribution of lifts. They may not have the best
totals, but as I said before, powerlifting scoring favors
lower body strength.

That's one reason I want to start participating in NASA
Powersports meets: strict curl, bench press, and deadlift.

[Whit]

"Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
news:3f485cca@clear.net.nz...
>
> "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote in message
> news:78cgkv4753b24kh5qemi8ln4i5m3fk8dvl@4ax.com...
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> > >
> > >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but
> > >you "smoked" a
> 319
> > >bp, albeit with a shirt
> >
> > Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> > thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors that.
> > But it ignores that some people have better upper body
> > strength, while others have better lower body strength.
> >
> > Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> > associations. The best totals, deadlift, and squat are
> > frequently held by the same person, but that person almost
> > never has the best bench press.
>
> not nessecarily upper or lower body strength. A good
> deadlifter will have long arms and short legs (which
> provides an advantage to squat as well).
A
> bencher will have short arms. THe IPF 52kg record holder
> (cant remember his name) has squatted 300, benched 177.5 but
> struggles getting >140kg deadlift cos hes a dwarf and
the
> body structure doesnt allow a decent lift. Coan is a
> deadlifter and a squatter, but his bench is comparably lower
(but
> not tiny)
> --
> Aaron

i have short arms, long legs, and am still a better deadlifter
than bencher

whit

>

[Whit]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:98egkvkaii6l9qaghsojg20hab2lsmmega@4ax.com...
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >wrote in message
> >news:78cgkv4753b24kh5qemi8ln4i5m3fk8dvl@4ax.com...
> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> >> >
> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but
> >> >you "smoked" a
> >319
> >> >bp, albeit with a shirt
> >>
> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> >> thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> >> that. But it ignores that some people have better upper
> >> body strength, while others have better lower body
> >> strength.
> >>
> >
> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
> >training related.
> >
> >i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in
> >relation to a reasonable group of comparison -
> >powerlifters, since they compete in
bench
> >and dead (and squat)
> >
> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's disproportional
> >vis a visw powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
>
> No. If you read what I said below ...
>
> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> >> associations. The best totals, deadlift, and squat are
> >> frequently held by the same person, but that person
> >> almost never has the best bench press.
>
> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a
> similar distribution of lifts. They may not have the best
> totals, but as I said before, powerlifting scoring favors
> lower body strength.
>

ok. i see what you mean.

do you not think that MOST people can deadlift significantly
more, in relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is
disproportional.

most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to
upper body, after all

> That's one reason I want to start participating in NASA
> Powersports meets: strict curl, bench press, and deadlift.

i've always thought those were kewl. don't they have a
powerclean for reps one as well, or is that a different org?

whit

[Will]

In article <r2igkvgvuq9d8n43ogpmaksrd7h98ic8vl@4ax.com>, Jeff
Finlayson <finlayson@hiwaay.not> wrote:

> Will <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue
> > powerlifting. Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
> >
> > First off, I am crappy at weight management. I get
> > paranoid and overdo the weight cutting measures the week
> > before a meet...although I think the scale I rely on at
> > home may be weighing a little heavy as well. Whatever
> > the exact reasons, I competed in the 220 lb class
> > weighing in at...
> >
> > 211. (At a hair over 6 feet tall)
>
> When did you weigh in; meet day or day before?

Day before. Was probably about 216 during the meet.

> > Yikes! I was in the mid 220s at the start of the month.
> > That shook me up a bit. And while it's no excuse, my coach
> > bailed on me at the last minute.
> >
> > Despite the weight loss I didn't feel too bad but my bench
> > shirt felt really loose. My warmup with 275 touched
> > easily, I'm used to needing at least 315 to be sure to
> > touch.
>
> Seems like losing a few pounds (mostly water??) wouldn't
> make that much difference. Wash and dry the shirt before
> the meet.

Actually, I was close to 230 when I bought the shirt, so it
was more than a few pounds.

> > Opened at 319...smoked it. Figured I'd be good for 353.
> > Figured wrong. First time I'm told I brought it down too
> > high on my chest. Got it halfway up and stalled out. Third
> > attempt hit where it should but stalled out again, and I
> > probably cut the pause short anyway. Crap. I've done a
> > solid 350 in the gym, but I weighed a lot more than 211 at
> > the time. My bench shirt didn't leave a single mark on my
> > body, a sure sign it's too loose now.
>
> Slowing your descent a little may help you touch where you
> want more consistently. If that was a one time thing then
> nevermind.

Thanks for the tip.

> > At least I hit my goal of 1.5x bodyweight at a meet...but
> > this is not how I wanted to do it.
> >
> > Similar story for the deadlift. With no coach and feeling
> > so underweight I decided to stick with my play it safe,
> > raw attempt strategy. Opened with 408 and got it ok. Next
> > was 424, double bodyweight. Got it, but it was way harder
> > than it should have been. I got it moving and just refused
> > to stop despite fighting it for what felt like an
> > eternity...probably 6 seconds or so. Got a lot of support
> > from the crowd. It really says something about the
> > comraderie of powerlifting that I got a ton of applause
> > and personal congratulations for busting my butt to
> > complete what is quite frankly a very unimpressive lift.
> > Just for the hell of it I asked for 452 for my third and
> > stuffed myself into my Metal Deadlifter as fast as I
> > could. Got the bar to my knees and tried my damnedest not
> > to give up on it as I fought the straps until the fingers
> > on my right hand peeled open. I think I need some custom
> > work to get a deadlift suit that works for me, a 54 Metal
> > is way too loose on my hips and thighs but the straps on
> > the 52 kill me.

> -- Fine job with 424 lb!

Thanks.

> Get the straps on the 52 loosened. Or get the straps
> tightened on the 54.

No, the straps on the 54 are fine, it's the leg holes and
diameter around the hips that are too big. I'm not sure
what's easier, getting them tightened or getting the straps
on the 52 loosened.

> > So, mixed feelings at the end of the day. Once again I
> > seem to have left my best lifts in the gym, but at least
> > I'm improving. I need to be a lot less stupid about weight
> > management and figure out how to peak for meets rather
> > than test days in the gym. I am starting to think the
> > instensity during the last two weeks of the peaking phase
> > in Sheiko is just too low, at least for me. It feels
> > strange going into a meet not having lifted anything
> > really heavy for two weeks, especially considering i do
> > better on test days in the middle of normal training
> > weeks.
>
> Make some adjustments or try another routine.
>
> > And next meet I'm lifting at whatever I weigh fully fed,
> > even if it means lifting in the 242's at 220.7.
>
> Try it and you might end up at 220 anyway. :)
>
> Rest up. Get back at it in a few days.

Will do. Thinking about Wade Hanna's conjugate 3x3...with a
little more speed I expect big things in my bench, I can get a
lot of weight started off the chest, it's keeping it going to
lockout that's the problem. I think this is part of why I
don't get much out of a shirt.

[Aaron]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote in message
news:bi9mfb$6udjg$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
> news:3f485cca@clear.net.nz...
> >
> > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote in
message
> > news:78cgkv4753b24kh5qemi8ln4i5m3fk8dvl@4ax.com...
> > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> > > >
> > > >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but
> > > >you "smoked"
a
> > 319
> > > >bp, albeit with a shirt
> > >
> > > Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> > > thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> > > that. But it ignores that some people have better upper
> > > body strength, while others have better lower body
> > > strength.
> > >
> > > Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> > > associations. The best totals, deadlift, and squat are
> > > frequently held by the same person, but that person
> > > almost never has the best bench press.
> >
> > not nessecarily upper or lower body strength. A good
> > deadlifter will
have
> > long arms and short legs (which provides an advantage to
> > squat as well).
> A
> > bencher will have short arms. THe IPF 52kg record holder
> > (cant remember his name) has squatted 300, benched 177.5
> > but struggles getting >140kg deadlift cos hes a dwarf and
> the
> > body structure doesnt allow a decent lift. Coan is a
> > deadlifter and a squatter, but his bench is
> > comparably lower
> (but
> > not tiny)
> > --
> > Aaron
>
> i have short arms, long legs, and am still a better
> deadlifter than
bencher

>
> whit

you need to bench more then :)

I have short arms and short legs, and my deadlift sucks. My
friend has long arms and legs, and short torso and can
deadlift awsomely, compared to a sucky bench

what length is your torso
(brachiomorphic.dicholiomorphic -sp?)

--
Aaron

>
> >
> >
> >
>

[Whit]

"Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
news:3f489bfa@clear.net.nz...
>
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote in message
> news:bi9mfb$6udjg$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
> > news:3f485cca@clear.net.nz...
> > >
> > > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > > wrote in
> message
> > > news:78cgkv4753b24kh5qemi8ln4i5m3fk8dvl@4ax.com...
> > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> > > > >
> > > > >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight,
> > > > >but you
"smoked"
> a
> > > 319
> > > > >bp, albeit with a shirt
> > > >
> > > > Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> > > > thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> > > > that. But it ignores that some people have better
> > > > upper body strength, while others have
better
> > > > lower body strength.
> > > >
> > > > Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> > > > associations. The
best
> > > > totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by the
> > > > same person, but that person almost never has the best
> > > > bench press.
> > >
> > > not nessecarily upper or lower body strength. A good
> > > deadlifter will
> have
> > > long arms and short legs (which provides an advantage to
> > > squat as
well).
> > A
> > > bencher will have short arms. THe IPF 52kg record holder
> > > (cant remember his name) has squatted 300, benched 177.5
> > > but struggles getting >140kg deadlift cos hes a dwarf
and
> > the
> > > body structure doesnt allow a decent lift. Coan is a
> > > deadlifter and a squatter, but his bench is comparably
> > > lower
> > (but
> > > not tiny)
> > > --
> > > Aaron
> >
> > i have short arms, long legs, and am still a better
> > deadlifter than
> bencher
>
> >
> > whit
>
> you need to bench more then :)
>
> I have short arms and short legs, and my deadlift sucks. My
> friend has
long
> arms and legs, and short torso and can deadlift awsomely,
> compared to a sucky bench
>
> what length is your torso
> (brachiomorphic.dicholiomorphic -sp?)
>
>
> --
> Aaron

relatively short torso. i haven't done a max bench in a while,
but i estimate a raw one at about 310.

havent' done a max deadlift in a while, but i did 365 for 18
reps recently, and that was fun.

probably a max dead about 520 or so.

whit

>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

[John M . W]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>"John M. Williams"
><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
>> >> >
>> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but
>> >> >you "smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
>> >>
>> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
>> >> thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors
>> >> that. But it ignores that some people have better upper
>> >> body strength, while others have better lower body
>> >> strength.
>> >>
>> >
>> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
>> >training related.
>> >
>> >i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in
>> >relation to a reasonable group of comparison -
>> >powerlifters, since they compete in bench and dead (and
>> >squat)
>> >
>> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
>> >disproportional vis a visw powerlifting, or push-pull
>> >meets.
>>
>> No. If you read what I said below ...
>>
>> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
>> >> associations. The best totals, deadlift, and squat are
>> >> frequently held by the same person, but that person
>> >> almost never has the best bench press.
>>
>> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a
>> similar distribution of lifts. They may not have the best
>> totals, but as I said before, powerlifting scoring favors
>> lower body strength.
>>
>
>ok. i see what you mean.
>
>do you not think that MOST people can deadlift significantly
>more, in relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is
>disproportional.
>
>most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to
>upper body, after all

Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the
lifts from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift that
was a solid 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
press. And that was despite your short arms and my long arms,
which, according to Aaron, should yield opposite results.

Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength,
while others have better lower body strength. As I said, check
the record lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see
what I mean.

[Keith Hobm]

In article <clkhkv4hq32nmdvfh0o491q3ted5dm2b10@4ax.com>, John
M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >"John M. Williams"
> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight,
> >> >> >but you "smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> >> >>
> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> >> >> thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> >> >> that. But it ignores that some people have better
> >> >> upper body strength, while others have better lower
> >> >> body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
> >> >training related.
> >> >
> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in
> >> >relation to a reasonable group of comparison -
> >> >powerlifters, since they compete in bench and dead (and
> >> >squat)
> >> >
> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> >> >disproportional vis a visw powerlifting, or push-pull
> >> >meets.
> >>
> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >>
> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> >> >> associations. The best totals, deadlift, and squat are
> >> >> frequently held by the same person, but that person
> >> >> almost never has the best bench press.
> >>
> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a
> >> similar distribution of lifts. They may not have the best
> >> totals, but as I said before, powerlifting scoring favors
> >> lower body strength.
> >>
> >
> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >
> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> >significantly more, in relation to their bench, than this
> >guy. iow, he is disproportional.
> >
> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to
> >upper body, after all
>
> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the
> lifts from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift
> that was a solid 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better
> bench press. And that was despite your short arms and my
> long arms, which, according to Aaron, should yield opposite
> results.
>
> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength,
> while others have better lower body strength. As I said,
> check the record lifts in several PL associations, and
> you'll see what I mean.

Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more so
than the deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
bench press without extraordinary upper body strength.

Of course the converse (ie lower body strength) could be said
of leverages and the deadlift. Rickey Dale Crain is one lifter
who argues for technique
- he says he was oftne not the strongest lifter, but he was
always the best prepared lifter. And it is tough to argue
with his success.

--
Keith Hobman

The email address above is a spam sink - no longer monitored

[Hoff]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:clkhkv4hq32nmdvfh0o491q3ted5dm2b10@4ax.com...
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >"John M. Williams"
> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight,
> >> >> >but you
"smoked" a
> >> >> >319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> >> >>
> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> >> >> thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> >> >> that. But it ignores that some people have better
> >> >> upper body strength, while others have
better
> >> >> lower body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
> >> >training related.
> >> >
> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in
> >> >relation to
a
> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters, since
> >> >they compete in bench and dead (and squat)
> >> >
> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> >> >disproportional vis a visw powerlifting, or push-pull
> >> >meets.
> >>
> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >>
> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> >> >> associations. The
best
> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by the
> >> >> same person, but that person almost never has the best
> >> >> bench press.
> >>
> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a
> >> similar distribution of lifts. They may not have the best
> >> totals, but as I said before, powerlifting scoring favors
> >> lower body strength.
> >>
> >
> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >
> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> >significantly more, in relation to their bench, than this
> >guy. iow, he is disproportional.
> >
> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to
> >upper body, after all
>
> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the
> lifts from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift
> that was a solid 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better
> bench press. And that was despite your short arms and my
> long arms, which, according to Aaron, should yield opposite
> results.

And just for the record (cuz I don't really remember), did
Whit use a shirt to bench?

Hoff

[John M . W]

khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote:
>> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >"John M. Williams"
>> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight,
>> >> >> >but you "smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
>> >> >> powerlifter thinking. I realize that powerlifting
>> >> >> scoring favors that. But it ignores that some people
>> >> >> have better upper body strength, while others have
>> >> >> better lower body strength.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
>> >> >training related.
>> >> >
>> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional,
>> >> >in relation to a reasonable group of comparison -
>> >> >powerlifters, since they compete in bench and dead (and
>> >> >squat)
>> >> >
>> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
>> >> >disproportional vis a visw powerlifting, or push-pull
>> >> >meets.
>> >>
>> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
>> >>
>> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
>> >> >> associations. The best totals, deadlift, and squat
>> >> >> are frequently held by the same person, but that
>> >> >> person almost never has the best bench press.
>> >>
>> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a
>> >> similar distribution of lifts. They may not have the
>> >> best totals, but as I said before, powerlifting scoring
>> >> favors lower body strength.
>> >>
>> >
>> >ok. i see what you mean.
>> >
>> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
>> >significantly more, in relation to their bench, than this
>> >guy. iow, he is disproportional.
>> >
>> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared
>> >to upper body, after all
>>
>> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare
>> the lifts from our respective first meets. You had a
>> deadlift that was a solid 85 pounds better than mine. I had
>> a better bench press. And that was despite your short arms
>> and my long arms, which, according to Aaron, should yield
>> opposite results.
>>
>> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength,
>> while others have better lower body strength. As I said,
>> check the record lifts in several PL associations, and
>> you'll see what I mean.
>
>Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more so
>than the deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
>bench press without extraordinary upper body strength.

"Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not only
muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation
(firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue,
mental state, and knowledge/application of technique. The only
reasonable way to objectively measure it is outcome: how much
one can lift in a specific movement. You can tweak the
definition to favor whatever you want, but the only way to
objectively combine all the factors is to say that whoever
lifts the most is the strongest.

[Keith Hobm]

In article <olmhkvgtbcundlrbisldej713r1g3r26a3@4ax.com>, John
M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote:
> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your
> >> >> >> >bench.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but you
"smoked" a
> >> >> >> >319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> >> >> >> powerlifter thinking. I realize that powerlifting
> >> >> >> scoring favors that. But it ignores that some
> >> >> >> people have better upper body strength, while
> >> >> >> others have better lower body strength.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
> >> >> >training related.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional,
> >> >> >in relation to a reasonable group of comparison -
> >> >> >powerlifters, since they compete in bench and dead
> >> >> >(and squat)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> >> >> >disproportional vis a visw powerlifting, or push-pull
> >> >> >meets.
> >> >>
> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >> >>
> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> >> >> >> associations. The best totals, deadlift, and squat
> >> >> >> are frequently held by the same person, but that
> >> >> >> person almost never has the best bench press.
> >> >>
> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a
> >> >> similar distribution of lifts. They may not have the
> >> >> best totals, but as I said before, powerlifting
> >> >> scoring favors lower body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >> >
> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> >> >significantly more, in relation to their bench, than
> >> >this guy. iow, he is disproportional.
> >> >
> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared
> >> >to upper body, after all
> >>
> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare
> >> the lifts from our respective first meets. You had a
> >> deadlift that was a solid 85 pounds better than mine. I
> >> had a better bench press. And that was despite your short
> >> arms and my long arms, which, according to Aaron, should
> >> yield opposite results.
> >>
> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength,
> >> while others have better lower body strength. As I said,
> >> check the record lifts in several PL associations, and
> >> you'll see what I mean.
> >
> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more so
> >than the deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
> >bench press without extraordinary upper body strength.
>
> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not
> only muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation
> (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue,
> mental state, and knowledge/application of technique. The
> only reasonable way to objectively measure it is outcome:
> how much one can lift in a specific movement. You can tweak
> the definition to favor whatever you want, but the only way
> to objectively combine all the factors is to say that
> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.

You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press has
the strongest upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole
or even necessarily the best indicator of upper body strength.

All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench
press. Nothing more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and
total. And this applies to other sports as well. For many
bench technicians who use the arch they have very little need
of overall upper body strength - just triceps at lockout. They
have huge benches with average upper body strength.

I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up -
which is an indicator of upper body strength as well. The
strict press indicates upper body strength. There are a lot of
indicators and the bench press is only one of them. So I say
it again - it is possible to have a good bench press without
extraordinary upper body strength.

--
Keith Hobman

The email address above is a spam sink - no longer monitored

[John M . W]

khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote:
>> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >"John M. Williams"
>> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
>> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your
>> >> >> >> >bench.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
>> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but you "smoked" a 319 bp, albeit
>> >> >> >> >with a shirt
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
>> >> >> >> powerlifter thinking. I realize that powerlifting
>> >> >> >> scoring favors that. But it ignores that some
>> >> >> >> people have better upper body strength, while
>> >> >> >> others have better lower body strength.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
>> >> >> >training related.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
>> >> >> >disproportional, in relation to a reasonable group
>> >> >> >of comparison - powerlifters, since they compete in
>> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
>> >> >> >disproportional vis a visw powerlifting, or
>> >> >> >push-pull meets.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
>> >> >> >> associations. The best totals, deadlift, and squat
>> >> >> >> are frequently held by the same person, but that
>> >> >> >> person almost never has the best bench press.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers have
>> >> >> a similar distribution of lifts. They may not have
>> >> >> the best totals, but as I said before, powerlifting
>> >> >> scoring favors lower body strength.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
>> >> >
>> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
>> >> >significantly more, in relation to their bench, than
>> >> >this guy. iow, he is disproportional.
>> >> >
>> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
>> >> >compared to upper body, after all
>> >>
>> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare
>> >> the lifts from our respective first meets. You had a
>> >> deadlift that was a solid 85 pounds better than mine. I
>> >> had a better bench press. And that was despite your
>> >> short arms and my long arms, which, according to Aaron,
>> >> should yield opposite results.
>> >>
>> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
>> >> strength, while others have better lower body strength.
>> >> As I said, check the record lifts in several PL
>> >> associations, and you'll see what I mean.
>> >
>> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more
>> >so than the deadlift. So its also possible to be have a
>> >good bench press without extraordinary upper body
>> >strength.
>>
>> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not
>> only muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular
>> adaptation (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance for
>> fatigue, mental state, and knowledge/application of
>> technique. The only reasonable way to objectively measure
>> it is outcome: how much one can lift in a specific
>> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor whatever
>> you want, but the only way to objectively combine all the
>> factors is to say that whoever lifts the most is the
>> strongest.
>
>You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press has
>the strongest upper body tho - since the bench is not the
>sole or even necessarily the best indicator of upper body
>strength.
>
>All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench
>press. Nothing more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and
>total. And this applies to other sports as well. For many
>bench technicians who use the arch they have very little need
>of overall upper body strength - just triceps at lockout.
>They have huge benches with average upper body strength.
>
>I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up -
>which is an indicator of upper body strength as well. The
>strict press indicates upper body strength. There are a lot
>of indicators and the bench press is only one of them. So I
>say it again - it is possible to have a good bench press
>without extraordinary upper body strength.

And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny calves,
so they may not have *overall* better lower body strength.

But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
effectively change what I'm saying. You know the records;
you've seen the lifters; and you know that there tends to be a
division, even amongst those in powersports. It's also one of
the reasons that most meets have separate bench press
competitions. Unweighted scoring favors lower body lifts, and
the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.

[Lisa]

"Will" <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote ...
> Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue
> powerlifting. Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
> snip At least I hit my goal of 1.5x bodyweight at a
> meet...but this is not how I wanted to do it. snip Next was
> 424, double bodyweight. Got it,

Despite all the other noise in this thread I think it needs to
be recognized that you had a pretty successful meet. Factor in
some of the unhelpful variables (starvation, no coach, useless
shirt) and *I* think it was some damned respectable lifting,
and I appreciate the meet report.

> And next meet I'm lifting at whatever I weigh fully fed

Good idea. And we'll need JPEGs. With legs. TIA
---
Lisa

[Lyle McDon]

"John M. Williams" wrote:
>
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >
> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> >
> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you
> >"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
>
> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors that.
> But it ignores that some people have better upper body
> strength, while others have better lower body strength.

As well, the anatomy that lends itself to good benching, also
lends to shitty DL'ing. And vice versa.

Lyle

[Aaron]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote in message
news:biacne$75pog$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
> news:3f489bfa@clear.net.nz...
> >
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote in message
> > news:bi9mfb$6udjg$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > "Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
> > > news:3f485cca@clear.net.nz...
> > > >
> > > > "John M. Williams"
> > > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > news:78cgkv4753b24kh5qemi8ln4i5m3fk8dvl@4ax.com...
> > > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight,
> > > > > >but you
> "smoked"
> > a
> > > > 319
> > > > > >bp, albeit with a shirt
> > > > >
> > > > > Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> > > > > powerlifter thinking.
I
> > > > > realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But
> > > > > it ignores
that
> > > > > some people have better upper body strength, while
> > > > > others have
> better
> > > > > lower body strength.
> > > > >
> > > > > Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> > > > > associations. The
> best
> > > > > totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by
> > > > > the same
person,
> > > > > but that person almost never has the best bench
> > > > > press.
> > > >
> > > > not nessecarily upper or lower body strength. A good
> > > > deadlifter
will
> > have
> > > > long arms and short legs (which provides an advantage
> > > > to squat as
> well).
> > > A
> > > > bencher will have short arms. THe IPF 52kg record
> > > > holder (cant remember his name) has squatted
300,
> > > > benched 177.5 but struggles getting >140kg deadlift
> > > > cos hes a dwarf
> and
> > > the
> > > > body structure doesnt allow a decent lift. Coan is a
> > > > deadlifter and a squatter, but his bench is comparably
lower
> > > (but
> > > > not tiny)
> > > > --
> > > > Aaron
> > >
> > > i have short arms, long legs, and am still a better
> > > deadlifter than
> > bencher
> >
> > >
> > > whit
> >
> > you need to bench more then :)
> >
> > I have short arms and short legs, and my deadlift sucks.
> > My friend has
> long
> > arms and legs, and short torso and can deadlift awsomely,
> > compared to a sucky bench
> >
> > what length is your torso
> > (brachiomorphic.dicholiomorphic -sp?)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Aaron
>
> relatively short torso. i haven't done a max bench in a
> while, but i estimate a raw one at about 310.
>
> havent' done a max deadlift in a while, but i did 365
> for 18 reps
recently,
> and that was fun.
>
> probably a max dead about 520 or so.
>
> whit

you can do 365 for 18, but think you can only do 520 for a
single! harden up man :)

and in terms of body type and performance, I was talking in
general, rather than individual possibilities. The reason you
may have a better bench vs dead is because you dont train
specifically to increase the performance of them. Most world
class benchers are nearly dwarfs (I feel tall compared to
some, and Im only 5'8" the top of the world at the moment,
Mendelson not that tall, but has short arms (also aided by
weiging 140kg lean), Anthony clark isnt that tall either. But
heading down into lighter weight classes they get shorter and
shorter, with shorter limbs. The japanese bipass the limb
length by getting an extreme arch as well (except Midote, hes
just one short big mother fucker)

There will always be some exceptions to the basic
leverages/legnth type of concept, but not very often. :)

> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

[Aaron]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:clkhkv4hq32nmdvfh0o491q3ted5dm2b10@4ax.com...
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >"John M. Williams"
> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight,
> >> >> >but you
"smoked" a
> >> >> >319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> >> >>
> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
> >> >> thinking. I realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> >> >> that. But it ignores that some people have better
> >> >> upper body strength, while others have
better
> >> >> lower body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
> >> >training related.
> >> >
> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in
> >> >relation to
a
> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters, since
> >> >they compete in bench and dead (and squat)
> >> >
> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> >> >disproportional vis a visw powerlifting, or push-pull
> >> >meets.
> >>
> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >>
> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> >> >> associations. The
best
> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by the
> >> >> same person, but that person almost never has the best
> >> >> bench press.
> >>
> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a
> >> similar distribution of lifts. They may not have the best
> >> totals, but as I said before, powerlifting scoring favors
> >> lower body strength.
> >>
> >
> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >
> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> >significantly more, in relation to their bench, than this
> >guy. iow, he is disproportional.
> >
> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to
> >upper body, after all
>
> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the
> lifts from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift
> that was a solid 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better
> bench press. And that was despite your short arms and my
> long arms, which, according to Aaron, should yield opposite
> results.

not exactly a controlled experiment. Ed Coan may have longer
arms than me, but he can bench more....

> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength,
> while others have better lower body strength. As I said,
> check the record lifts in several PL associations, and
> you'll see what I mean.

[Whit]

"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ce52b.244292$YN5.164570@sccrnsc01...
> "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote in message
> news:clkhkv4hq32nmdvfh0o491q3ted5dm2b10@4ax.com...
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >"John M. Williams"
> > >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight,
> > >> >> >but you
> "smoked" a
> > >> >> >319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> > >> >> powerlifter thinking.
I
> > >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But
> > >> >> it ignores
that
> > >> >> some people have better upper body strength, while
> > >> >> others have
> better
> > >> >> lower body strength.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily
> > >> >training
related.
> > >> >
> > >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional,
> > >> >in relation
to
> a
> > >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters, since
> > >> >they compete in bench and dead (and squat)
> > >> >
> > >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> > >> >disproportional vis a
visw
> > >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> > >>
> > >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> > >>
> > >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> > >> >> associations. The
> best
> > >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by
> > >> >> the same
person,
> > >> >> but that person almost never has the best bench
> > >> >> press.
> > >>
> > >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a
> > >> similar distribution of lifts. They may not have the
> > >> best totals, but as I said before, powerlifting scoring
> > >> favors lower body strength.
> > >>
> > >
> > >ok. i see what you mean.
> > >
> > >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> > >significantly more, in relation to their bench, than this
> > >guy. iow, he is disproportional.
> > >
> > >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared
> > >to upper body, after all
> >
> > Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare
> > the lifts from our respective first meets. You had a
> > deadlift that was a solid 85 pounds better than mine. I
> > had a better bench press. And that was despite your short
> > arms and my long arms, which, according to Aaron, should
> > yield opposite results.
>
> And just for the record (cuz I don't really remember), did
> Whit use a
shirt
> to bench?
>
> Hoff

no.

raw as a mf'er.

well, i did use a belt.

but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.

if i do another pling meet, i would like to do...

535 deadlift 335 bench press 445 squat.

raw

the squat is low because i will refuse to do some candyass
pl'er style squat. i will do a real ol'er squat, and suffer
the lower total for the sake of handsomeness and style.

whit

[John M . W]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>"John M. Williams"
><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> >> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
>> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
>> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your
>> >> >> >> >> >bench.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
>> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but you "smoked" a 319 bp, albeit
>> >> >> >> >> >with a shirt
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
>> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
>thinking. I
>> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors that.
>> >> >> >> >> But it ignores
>that
>> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body strength,
>> >> >> >> >> while others have
>better
>> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
>> >> >> >> >necessarily training
>related.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
>> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
>relation to a
>> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
>> >> >> >> >since they
>compete in
>> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
>> >> >> >> >disproportional vis
>a visw
>> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
>> >> >> >> >> associations.
>The best
>> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held
>> >> >> >> >> by the same
>person,
>> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best bench
>> >> >> >> >> press.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers
>> >> >> >> have a similar distribution of lifts. They may not
>> >> >> >> have the best totals, but as
>I
>> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower
>> >> >> >> body strength.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
>> >> >> >significantly more,
>in
>> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is
>disproportional.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
>> >> >> >compared to upper
>body,
>> >> >> >after all
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
>> >> >> Compare the lifts from our respective first meets.
>> >> >> You had a deadlift that was a
>solid
>> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
>> >> >> press. And that
>was
>> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
>> >> >> according to Aaron, should yield opposite results.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
>> >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
>> >> >> strength. As I said, check the record lifts in
>> >> >> several PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.
>> >> >
>> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press -
>> >> >more so than the deadlift. So its also possible to be
>> >> >have a good bench press without extraordinary upper
>> >> >body strength.
>> >>
>> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not
>> >> only muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular
>> >> adaptation (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance
>> >> for fatigue, mental state, and knowledge/application of
>> >> technique. The only reasonable way to objectively
>> >> measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a
>> >> specific movement. You can tweak the definition to favor
>> >> whatever you want, but the only way to objectively
>> >> combine all the factors is to say that whoever lifts the
>> >> most is the strongest.
>> >
>> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press
>> >has the
>strongest
>> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even
>> >necessarily the best indicator of upper body strength.
>> >
>> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench
>> >press. Nothing more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift
>> >and total. And this applies to other sports as well. For
>> >many bench technicians who use the arch they have very
>> >little need of overall upper body strength - just triceps
>> >at lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body
>> >strength.
>> >
>> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up
>> >- which is an indicator of upper body strength as well.
>> >The strict press indicates
>upper
>> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the bench
>> >press is only one of them. So I say it again - it is
>> >possible to have a good bench
>press
>> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
>>
>> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
>> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower body
>> strength.
>>
>> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
>> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the records;
>> you've seen the lifters; and you know that there tends to
>> be a division, even amongst those in powersports. It's also
>> one of the reasons that most meets have separate bench
>> press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors lower body
>> lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best
>> totals.
>
>yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
>lifts (ok, dead is mostly lower body and lower back) and only
>one upper body lift.
>
>if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
>squat or...
>
>bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
>squat or...

Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
addition to the matter already under discussion, but Keith's
comment about pullups made me think again about this
proposition, which I have thought about many times before ...

Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting; it's
a major compound lift like the others, and the parameters of
the lift could be judged very easily -- dead drop to hooking
the chin over the bar.

We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know why.
Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get a
single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty squats
and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over bodyweight,
would dilute the living shit out of their totals.

This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength vs.
lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift powerlifting, by its
nature, attracts those whose predominant strength is in the
lower body. The bench press is added to "round things out,"
but we all know it doesn't significantly add to the totals
compared to the other lifts. And from this, I draw the
following conclusions:

[1] It is not reasonable to compare the spread between
bench press
vs. deadlift or bench press vs. squat with the standards of
most powerlifters because, for them, those numbers are
already skewed.

[2] Weighted chins, although a perfect lift for powerlifting,
will never be added because it would seriously dilute the
totals of the classic bottom-heavy lifters who are most
attracted to powerlifting.

[John M . W]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>"John M. Williams"
><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
>> >> >pull-up - which is an indicator of upper body strength
>> >> >as well. The strict press indicates upper body
>> >> >strength. There are a lot of indicators and the bench
>> >> >press is only one of them. So I say it again - it is
>> >> >possible to have a good bench press without
>> >> >extraordinary upper body strength.
>> >>
>> >> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
>> >> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower body
>> >> strength.
>> >>
>> >> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
>> >> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the
>> >> records; you've seen the lifters; and you know that
>> >> there tends to be a division, even amongst those in
>> >> powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most
>> >> meets have separate bench press competitions. Unweighted
>> >> scoring favors lower body lifts, and the best
>> >> bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.
>> >
>> >yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
>> >lifts (ok, dead is mostly lower body and lower back) and
>> >only one upper body lift.
>> >
>> >if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
>> >squat or...
>> >
>> >bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
>> >squat or...
>>
>> Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
>> addition to the matter already under discussion, but
>> Keith's comment about pullups made me think again about
>> this proposition, which I have thought about many times
>> before ...
>>
>> Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting;
>> it's a major compound lift like the others, and the
>> parameters of the lift could be judged very easily -- dead
>> drop to hooking the chin over the bar.
>>
>> We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know why.
>> Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
>> big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get a
>> single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty
>> squats and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over
>> bodyweight, would dilute the living shit out of their
>> totals.
>>
>
>it would be frigging awesome.
>
>plus, then plers would have nice outer lat development. :)
>
>heh
>
>> This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength
>> vs. lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift powerlifting,
>> by its nature, attracts those whose predominant strength is
>> in the lower body. The bench press is added to "round
>> things out," but we all know it doesn't significantly add
>> to the totals compared to the other lifts. And from this, I
>> draw the following conclusions:
>>
>
>it would also add a strength proportional to bw issue. (well,
>the squat includes the bw as well, but it is a much smaller
>portion of the weight lifted than the pullup, and excess bw
>also offers a little advantage in joint and stomoch bounce,
>etc. whereas it is a complete hindrance in pullups)

And to be even more extreme ...

I think the scoring weight should be *strictly* the plates and
dip belt. Body weight is already factored in by weight class.
If the lifter wants to lift strictly in a thin singlet and
barefoot to decrease weight, fine.

If the lifter is too fat to chin his/her own body weight,
he/she bombs. Fuck 'em.

Maybe then the big-legged fat boys will have to start lifting
in single-lift competitions. ;)

And I don't even want to think about how much shit this
proposal will draw from the women ...

[Keith Hobm]

In article <7ljikv86ie6f4m7db27jnovon4judl5krt@4ax.com>, John
M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote:
> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your
> >> >> >> >> >bench.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but you "smoked" a 319 bp, albeit
> >> >> >> >> >with a shirt
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
thinking. I
> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors that.
> >> >> >> >> But it
ignores that
> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body strength,
> >> >> >> >> while others
have better
> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> >> >> >> >necessarily training
related.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
relation to a
> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
> >> >> >> >since they compete in bench and dead (and squat)
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> >> >> >> >disproportional
vis a visw
> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> >> >> >> >> associations.
The best
> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held
> >> >> >> >> by the same
person,
> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best bench
> >> >> >> >> press.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers
> >> >> >> have a similar distribution of lifts. They may not
> >> >> >> have the best totals, but as I said before,
> >> >> >> powerlifting scoring favors lower body strength.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> >> >> >significantly more, in relation to their bench, than
> >> >> >this guy. iow, he is disproportional.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> >> >> >compared to upper body, after all
> >> >>
> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> >> >> Compare the lifts from our respective first meets. You
> >> >> had a deadlift that was a solid 85 pounds better than
> >> >> mine. I had a better bench press. And that was despite
> >> >> your short arms and my long arms, which, according to
> >> >> Aaron, should yield opposite results.
> >> >>
> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
> >> >> strength. As I said, check the record lifts in several
> >> >> PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.
> >> >
> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more
> >> >so than the deadlift. So its also possible to be have a
> >> >good bench press without extraordinary upper body
> >> >strength.
> >>
> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not
> >> only muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular
> >> adaptation (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance
> >> for fatigue, mental state, and knowledge/application of
> >> technique. The only reasonable way to objectively measure
> >> it is outcome: how much one can lift in a specific
> >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor whatever
> >> you want, but the only way to objectively combine all the
> >> factors is to say that whoever lifts the most is the
> >> strongest.
> >
> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press
> >has the strongest upper body tho - since the bench is not
> >the sole or even necessarily the best indicator of upper
> >body strength.
> >
> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench
> >press. Nothing more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift
> >and total. And this applies to other sports as well. For
> >many bench technicians who use the arch they have very
> >little need of overall upper body strength - just triceps
> >at lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body
> >strength.
> >
> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up -
> >which is an indicator of upper body strength as well. The
> >strict press indicates upper body strength. There are a lot
> >of indicators and the bench press is only one of them. So I
> >say it again - it is possible to have a good bench press
> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
>
> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny calves,
> so they may not have *overall* better lower body strength.
>
> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the records;
> you've seen the lifters; and you know that there tends to be
> a division, even amongst those in powersports. It's also one
> of the reasons that most meets have separate bench press
> competitions. Unweighted scoring favors lower body lifts,
> and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.

No question. 2 lifts to 1 and the total is weighted (Wilkes),
not the individual lifts.

--
Keith Hobman

The email address above is a spam sink - no longer monitored

[Whit]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:7ljikv86ie6f4m7db27jnovon4judl5krt@4ax.com...
> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote:
> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your
> >> >> >> >> >bench.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but you "smoked" a 319 bp, albeit
> >> >> >> >> >with a shirt
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
thinking. I
> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors that.
> >> >> >> >> But it ignores
that
> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body strength,
> >> >> >> >> while others have
better
> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> >> >> >> >necessarily training
related.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
relation to a
> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
> >> >> >> >since they
compete in
> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> >> >> >> >disproportional vis
a visw
> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> >> >> >> >> associations.
The best
> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held
> >> >> >> >> by the same
person,
> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best bench
> >> >> >> >> press.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers
> >> >> >> have a similar distribution of lifts. They may not
> >> >> >> have the best totals, but as
I
> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower body
> >> >> >> strength.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> >> >> >significantly more,
in
> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is
disproportional.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> >> >> >compared to upper
body,
> >> >> >after all
> >> >>
> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> >> >> Compare the lifts from our respective first meets. You
> >> >> had a deadlift that was a
solid
> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> >> >> press. And that
was
> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> >> >> according to Aaron, should yield opposite results.
> >> >>
> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
> >> >> strength. As I said, check the record lifts in several
> >> >> PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.
> >> >
> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more
> >> >so than the deadlift. So its also possible to be have a
> >> >good bench press without extraordinary upper body
> >> >strength.
> >>
> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not
> >> only muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular
> >> adaptation (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance
> >> for fatigue, mental state, and knowledge/application of
> >> technique. The only reasonable way to objectively measure
> >> it is outcome: how much one can lift in a specific
> >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor whatever
> >> you want, but the only way to objectively combine all the
> >> factors is to say that whoever lifts the most is the
> >> strongest.
> >
> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press
> >has the
strongest
> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even
> >necessarily the best indicator of upper body strength.
> >
> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench
> >press. Nothing more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift
> >and total. And this applies to other sports as well. For
> >many bench technicians who use the arch they have very
> >little need of overall upper body strength - just triceps
> >at lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body
> >strength.
> >
> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up -
> >which is an indicator of upper body strength as well. The
> >strict press indicates
upper
> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the bench
> >press is only one of them. So I say it again - it is
> >possible to have a good bench
press
> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
>
> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny calves,
> so they may not have *overall* better lower body strength.
>
> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the records;
> you've seen the lifters; and you know that there tends to be
> a division, even amongst those in powersports. It's also one
> of the reasons that most meets have separate bench press
> competitions. Unweighted scoring favors lower body lifts,
> and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.

yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
lifts (ok, dead is mostly lower body and lower back) and only
one upper body lift.

if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
squat or...

bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
squat or...

well, you get the point.

i think powerlifting is less biased towards lower body than
ol'ing. especially with the 'modern technique' (2nd knee
bend, thigh brush, etc.) the upper body really is not taxed
enough imo

whit

[Whit]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:b70jkv8pp7o3f8hba2n09vcv6ti0d7hrf0@4ax.com...
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >"John M. Williams"
> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> >> > John M. Williams
> >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your
> >> >> >> >> >> >bench.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> >> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but
you
> >> >> >> >> >> >"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> >> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
> >thinking. I
> >> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> >> >> >> >> >> that. But it
ignores
> >that
> >> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body strength,
> >> >> >> >> >> while others
have
> >better
> >> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> >> >> >> >> >necessarily training
> >related.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> >> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
> >relation to a
> >> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
> >> >> >> >> >since they
> >compete in
> >> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> >> >> >> >> >disproportional
vis
> >a visw
> >> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> >> >> >> >> >> associations.
> >The best
> >> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
> >> >> >> >> >> held by the same
> >person,
> >> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
> >> >> >> >> >> bench press.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers
> >> >> >> >> have a similar distribution of lifts. They may
> >> >> >> >> not have the best totals, but
as
> >I
> >> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower
> >> >> >> >> body strength.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> >> >> >> >significantly
more,
> >in
> >> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is
> >disproportional.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> >> >> >> >compared to
upper
> >body,
> >> >> >> >after all
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> >> >> >> Compare the
lifts
> >> >> >> from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift
> >> >> >> that was a
> >solid
> >> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> >> >> >> press. And
that
> >was
> >> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> >> >> >> according to
Aaron,
> >> >> >> should yield opposite results.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> >> >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
> >> >> >> strength. As I said, check the
record
> >> >> >> lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see
> >> >> >> what I mean.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press -
> >> >> >more so than
the
> >> >> >deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
> >> >> >bench press
without
> >> >> >extraordinary upper body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving
> >> >> not only muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular
> >> >> adaptation (firing rates, recruitment, etc.),
> >> >> tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
> >> >> knowledge/application of technique. The only
> >> >> reasonable way to objectively measure it is outcome:
> >> >> how much one can lift in a
specific
> >> >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor
> >> >> whatever you want, but the only way to objectively
> >> >> combine all the factors is to say
that
> >> >> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
> >> >
> >> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press
> >> >has the
> >strongest
> >> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even
> >> >necessarily
the
> >> >best indicator of upper body strength.
> >> >
> >> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
> >> >bench press.
Nothing
> >> >more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total.
> >> >And this applies
to
> >> >other sports as well. For many bench technicians who use
> >> >the arch they have very little need of overall upper
> >> >body strength - just triceps at lockout. They have huge
> >> >benches with average upper body strength.
> >> >
> >> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
> >> >pull-up - which is
an
> >> >indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict
> >> >press indicates
> >upper
> >> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
> >> >bench press is
only
> >> >one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to have
> >> >a good bench
> >press
> >> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
> >>
> >> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
> >> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower body
> >> strength.
> >>
> >> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> >> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the records;
> >> you've seen the lifters; and you know that there tends to
> >> be a division, even amongst those in powersports. It's
> >> also one of the reasons that most meets have separate
> >> bench press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors lower
> >> body lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the
> >> best totals.
> >
> >yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
> >lifts (ok, dead
is
> >mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper
> >body lift.
> >
> >if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
> >squat or...
> >
> >bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
> >squat or...
>
> Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
> addition to the matter already under discussion, but
> Keith's comment about pullups made me think again about
> this proposition, which I have thought about many times
> before ...
>
> Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting;
> it's a major compound lift like the others, and the
> parameters of the lift could be judged very easily -- dead
> drop to hooking the chin over the bar.
>
> We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know why.
> Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
> big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get a
> single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty squats
> and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over bodyweight,
> would dilute the living shit out of their totals.
>

it would be frigging awesome.

plus, then plers would have nice outer lat development. :)

heh

> This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength vs.
> lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift powerlifting, by
> its nature, attracts those whose predominant strength is in
> the lower body. The bench press is added to "round things
> out," but we all know it doesn't significantly add to the
> totals compared to the other lifts. And from this, I draw
> the following conclusions:
>

it would also add a strength proportional to bw issue. (well,
the squat includes the bw as well, but it is a much smaller
portion of the weight lifted than the pullup, and excess bw
also offers a little advantage in joint and stomoch bounce,
etc. whereas it is a complete hindrance in pullups)

> [1] It is not reasonable to compare the spread between
> bench press
> vs. deadlift or bench press vs. squat with the standards of
> most powerlifters because, for them, those numbers are
> already skewed.
>
> [2] Weighted chins, although a perfect lift for
> powerlifting, will never be added because it would
> seriously dilute the totals of the classic bottom-heavy
> lifters who are most attracted to powerlifting.

yes. i think us prettier OLers would do much better

whit

[Keith Hobm]

In article <bibnnd$7e71i$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de>,
"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:

> "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote in message
> news:7ljikv86ie6f4m7db27jnovon4judl5krt@4ax.com...
> > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > >> > John M. Williams
> > >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your
> > >> >> >> >> >bench.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> > >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but you "smoked" a 319 bp, albeit
> > >> >> >> >> >with a shirt
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> > >> >> >> >> powerlifter
> thinking. I
> > >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors that.
> > >> >> >> >> But it ignores
> that
> > >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body strength,
> > >> >> >> >> while others have
> better
> > >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> > >> >> >> >necessarily training
> related.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> > >> >> >> >disproportional, in
> relation to a
> > >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
> > >> >> >> >since they
> compete in
> > >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> > >> >> >> >disproportional vis
> a visw
> > >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> > >> >> >> >> associations.
> The best
> > >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
> > >> >> >> >> held by the same
> person,
> > >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
> > >> >> >> >> bench press.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers
> > >> >> >> have a similar distribution of lifts. They may
> > >> >> >> not have the best totals, but as
> I
> > >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower
> > >> >> >> body strength.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> > >> >> >significantly more,
> in
> > >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is
> disproportional.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> > >> >> >compared to upper
> body,
> > >> >> >after all
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> > >> >> Compare the lifts from our respective first meets.
> > >> >> You had a deadlift that was a
> solid
> > >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> > >> >> press. And that
> was
> > >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> > >> >> according to Aaron, should yield opposite results.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> > >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
> > >> >> strength. As I said, check the record lifts in
> > >> >> several PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.
> > >> >
> > >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press -
> > >> >more so than the deadlift. So its also possible to be
> > >> >have a good bench press without extraordinary upper
> > >> >body strength.
> > >>
> > >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving
> > >> not only muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular
> > >> adaptation (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance
> > >> for fatigue, mental state, and knowledge/application of
> > >> technique. The only reasonable way to objectively
> > >> measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a
> > >> specific movement. You can tweak the definition to
> > >> favor whatever you want, but the only way to
> > >> objectively combine all the factors is to say that
> > >> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
> > >
> > >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press
> > >has the
> strongest
> > >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even
> > >necessarily the best indicator of upper body strength.
> > >
> > >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
> > >bench press. Nothing more or less. Ditto for squat and
> > >deadlift and total. And this applies to other sports as
> > >well. For many bench technicians who use the arch they
> > >have very little need of overall upper body strength -
> > >just triceps at lockout. They have huge benches with
> > >average upper body strength.
> > >
> > >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up
> > >- which is an indicator of upper body strength as well.
> > >The strict press indicates
> upper
> > >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
> > >bench press is only one of them. So I say it again - it
> > >is possible to have a good bench
> press
> > >without extraordinary upper body strength.
> >
> > And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
> > calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower body
> > strength.
> >
> > But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> > effectively change what I'm saying. You know the records;
> > you've seen the lifters; and you know that there tends to
> > be a division, even amongst those in powersports. It's
> > also one of the reasons that most meets have separate
> > bench press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors lower
> > body lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the
> > best totals.
>
> yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
> lifts (ok, dead is mostly lower body and lower back) and
> only one upper body lift.
>
> if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
> squat or...
>
> bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
> squat or...
>
> well, you get the point.
>
> i think powerlifting is less biased towards lower body than
> ol'ing. especially with the 'modern technique' (2nd knee
> bend, thigh brush, etc.) the upper body really is not taxed
> enough imo

BRING BACK THE PRESS!!

:^)

(I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on that!)

--
Keith Hobman

The email address above is a spam sink - no longer monitored

[Will]

> "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote in message
> news:b70jkv8pp7o3f8hba2n09vcv6ti0d7hrf0@4ax.com...
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > >> > John M. Williams
> > >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > >> >> > John M. Williams
> > >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to
> > >> >> >> >> >> >your bench.
> > >> >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> > >> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but
> you
> > >> >> >> >> >> >"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> > >> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
> > >thinking. I
> > >> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> > >> >> >> >> >> that. But it
> ignores
> > >that
> > >> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body
> > >> >> >> >> >> strength, while others
> have
> > >better
> > >> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> > >> >> >> >> >necessarily training
> > >related.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> > >> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
> > >relation to a
> > >> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison -
> > >> >> >> >> >powerlifters, since they
> > >compete in
> > >> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> > >> >> >> >> >disproportional
> vis
> > >a visw
> > >> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most
> > >> >> >> >> >> powerlifting associations.
> > >The best
> > >> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
> > >> >> >> >> >> held by the same
> > >person,
> > >> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
> > >> >> >> >> >> bench press.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best
> > >> >> >> >> bench-pressers have a similar distribution of
> > >> >> >> >> lifts. They may not have the best totals, but
> as
> > >I
> > >> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower
> > >> >> >> >> body strength.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> > >> >> >> >significantly
> more,
> > >in
> > >> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he
> > >> >> >> >is
> > >disproportional.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> > >> >> >> >compared to
> upper
> > >body,
> > >> >> >> >after all
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> > >> >> >> Compare the
> lifts
> > >> >> >> from our respective first meets. You had a
> > >> >> >> deadlift that was a
> > >solid
> > >> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> > >> >> >> press. And
> that
> > >was
> > >> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> > >> >> >> according to
> Aaron,
> > >> >> >> should yield opposite results.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> > >> >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
> > >> >> >> strength. As I said, check the
> record
> > >> >> >> lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see
> > >> >> >> what I mean.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press -
> > >> >> >more so than
> the
> > >> >> >deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
> > >> >> >bench press
> without
> > >> >> >extraordinary upper body strength.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving
> > >> >> not only muscle fiber content, but also
> > >> >> neuromuscular adaptation (firing rates, recruitment,
> > >> >> etc.), tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
> > >> >> knowledge/application of technique. The only
> > >> >> reasonable way to objectively measure it is outcome:
> > >> >> how much one can lift in a
> specific
> > >> >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor
> > >> >> whatever you want, but the only way to objectively
> > >> >> combine all the factors is to say
> that
> > >> >> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
> > >> >
> > >> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench
> > >> >press has the
> > >strongest
> > >> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or
> > >> >even necessarily
> the
> > >> >best indicator of upper body strength.
> > >> >
> > >> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
> > >> >bench press.
> Nothing
> > >> >more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total.
> > >> >And this applies
> to
> > >> >other sports as well. For many bench technicians who
> > >> >use the arch they have very little need of overall
> > >> >upper body strength - just triceps at lockout. They
> > >> >have huge benches with average upper body strength.
> > >> >
> > >> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
> > >> >pull-up - which is
> an
> > >> >indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict
> > >> >press indicates
> > >upper
> > >> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
> > >> >bench press is
> only
> > >> >one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to
> > >> >have a good bench
> > >press
> > >> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
> > >>
> > >> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
> > >> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower
> > >> body strength.
> > >>
> > >> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> > >> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the
> > >> records; you've seen the lifters; and you know that
> > >> there tends to be a division, even amongst those in
> > >> powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most
> > >> meets have separate bench press competitions.
> > >> Unweighted scoring favors lower body lifts, and the
> > >> best bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.
> > >
> > >yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
> > >lifts (ok, dead
> is
> > >mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper body
> > >lift.
> > >
> > >if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
> > >squat or...
> > >
> > >bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
> > >squat or...
> >
> > Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
> > addition to the matter already under discussion, but
> > Keith's comment about pullups made me think again about
> > this proposition, which I have thought about many times
> > before ...
> >
> > Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting;
> > it's a major compound lift like the others, and the
> > parameters of the lift could be judged very easily -- dead
> > drop to hooking the chin over the bar.
> >
> > We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know why.
> > Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
> > big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get a
> > single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty
> > squats and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over
> > bodyweight, would dilute the living shit out of their
> > totals.

How exactly does your 100 lb weighted chin "dilute the shit"
out of some fat monster's 800+ lb squat? I can maybe see the
argument that all these guys would bomb such a meet, but if
you gave him a zero his total would still far surpass most
pull up specialists'.

[Whit]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
news:khobman-2408031930190001@192.168.1.101...
> In article <bibnnd$7e71i$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>
> > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote in
message
> > news:7ljikv86ie6f4m7db27jnovon4judl5krt@4ax.com...
> > > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > > > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > > >> > John M. Williams
> > > >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > > >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > > >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to
> > > >> >> >> >> >your bench.
> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> > > >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but
you
> > > >> >> >> >> >"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> > > >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> > > >> >> >> >> powerlifter
> > thinking. I
> > > >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> > > >> >> >> >> that. But it
ignores
> > that
> > > >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body strength,
> > > >> >> >> >> while others
have
> > better
> > > >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> > > >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> > > >> >> >> >necessarily
training
> > related.
> > > >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> > > >> >> >> >disproportional, in
> > relation to a
> > > >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
> > > >> >> >> >since they
> > compete in
> > > >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> > > >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> > > >> >> >> >disproportional
vis
> > a visw
> > > >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most
> > > >> >> >> >> powerlifting
associations.
> > The best
> > > >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
> > > >> >> >> >> held by the
same
> > person,
> > > >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
> > > >> >> >> >> bench press.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers
> > > >> >> >> have a
similar
> > > >> >> >> distribution of lifts. They may not have the
> > > >> >> >> best totals,
but as
> > I
> > > >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower
> > > >> >> >> body strength.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> > > >> >> >significantly
more,
> > in
> > > >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he
> > > >> >> >is
> > disproportional.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> > > >> >> >compared to
upper
> > body,
> > > >> >> >after all
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> > > >> >> Compare the
lifts
> > > >> >> from our respective first meets. You had a
> > > >> >> deadlift that was a
> > solid
> > > >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> > > >> >> press. And
that
> > was
> > > >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> > > >> >> according to
Aaron,
> > > >> >> should yield opposite results.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> > > >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
> > > >> >> strength. As I said, check the
record
> > > >> >> lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see
> > > >> >> what I mean.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press -
> > > >> >more so than
the
> > > >> >deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
> > > >> >bench press
without
> > > >> >extraordinary upper body strength.
> > > >>
> > > >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving
> > > >> not only
muscle
> > > >> fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation
> > > >> (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance for
> > > >> fatigue, mental state, and knowledge/application of
> > > >> technique. The only reasonable way to objectively
> > > >> measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a
specific
> > > >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor
> > > >> whatever you want, but the only way to objectively
> > > >> combine all the factors is to say
that
> > > >> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
> > > >
> > > >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench
> > > >press has the
> > strongest
> > > >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or
> > > >even necessarily
the
> > > >best indicator of upper body strength.
> > > >
> > > >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
> > > >bench press.
Nothing
> > > >more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total.
> > > >And this
applies to
> > > >other sports as well. For many bench technicians who
> > > >use the arch
they
> > > >have very little need of overall upper body strength -
> > > >just triceps
at
> > > >lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body
> > > >strength.
> > > >
> > > >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
> > > >pull-up - which is
an
> > > >indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict
> > > >press indicates
> > upper
> > > >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
> > > >bench press is
only
> > > >one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to have
> > > >a good bench
> > press
> > > >without extraordinary upper body strength.
> > >
> > > And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
> > > calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower body
> > > strength.
> > >
> > > But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> > > effectively change what I'm saying. You know the
> > > records; you've seen the lifters; and you know that
> > > there tends to be a division, even amongst those in
> > > powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most
> > > meets have separate bench press competitions. Unweighted
> > > scoring favors lower body lifts, and the best
> > > bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.
> >
> > yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
> > lifts (ok,
dead is
> > mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper
> > body lift.
> >
> > if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
> > squat or...
> >
> > bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
> > squat or...
> >
> > well, you get the point.
> >
> > i think powerlifting is less biased towards lower body
> > than ol'ing. especially with the 'modern technique' (2nd
> > knee bend, thigh brush,
etc.)
> > the upper body really is not taxed enough imo
>
> BRING BACK THE PRESS!!
>
> :^)
>
> (I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on that!)
>
> --
> Keith Hobman

well, i should argue just to eliminate the possibility
of actually agreeing with you, but when you're right,
you're right.

:l

whit

>
> The email address above is a spam sink - no longer monitored

[Lee Michae]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote in message
news:bibs5g$7dl29$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
> news:khobman-2408031930190001@192.168.1.101...
> > In article <bibnnd$7e71i$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >
> > > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > > wrote in
> message
> > > news:7ljikv86ie6f4m7db27jnovon4judl5krt@4ax.com...
> > > > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > > > > John M. Williams
> > > > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > > > >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > > > >> > John M. Williams
> > > > >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > > > >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > > >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > > > >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > > > >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to
> > > > >> >> >> >> >your bench.
> > > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> > > > >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but
> you
> > > > >> >> >> >> >"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> > > > >> >> >> >> powerlifter
> > > thinking. I
> > > > >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> > > > >> >> >> >> that. But it
> ignores
> > > that
> > > > >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body
> > > > >> >> >> >> strength, while
others
> have
> > > better
> > > > >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> > > > >> >> >> >necessarily
> training
> > > related.
> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> > > > >> >> >> >disproportional, in
> > > relation to a
> > > > >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison -
> > > > >> >> >> >powerlifters, since they
> > > compete in
> > > > >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
disproportional
> vis
> > > a visw
> > > > >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most
> > > > >> >> >> >> powerlifting
> associations.
> > > The best
> > > > >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
> > > > >> >> >> >> held by the
> same
> > > person,
> > > > >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
> > > > >> >> >> >> bench press.
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> ... you would find that the best
> > > > >> >> >> bench-pressers have a
> similar
> > > > >> >> >> distribution of lifts. They may not have the
> > > > >> >> >> best totals,
> but as
> > > I
> > > > >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors
> > > > >> >> >> lower body
strength.
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> > > > >> >> >significantly
> more,
> > > in
> > > > >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he
> > > > >> >> >is
> > > disproportional.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> > > > >> >> >compared to
> upper
> > > body,
> > > > >> >> >after all
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> > > > >> >> Compare the
> lifts
> > > > >> >> from our respective first meets. You had a
> > > > >> >> deadlift that was
a
> > > solid
> > > > >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> > > > >> >> press. And
> that
> > > was
> > > > >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> > > > >> >> according to
> Aaron,
> > > > >> >> should yield opposite results.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> > > > >> >> strength,
while
> > > > >> >> others have better lower body strength. As I
> > > > >> >> said, check the
> record
> > > > >> >> lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see
> > > > >> >> what I mean.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press
> > > > >> >- more so than
> the
> > > > >> >deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
> > > > >> >bench press
> without
> > > > >> >extraordinary upper body strength.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept,
> > > > >> involving not only
> muscle
> > > > >> fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation
> > > > >> (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance for
> > > > >> fatigue, mental state, and knowledge/application of
> > > > >> technique. The only reasonable way to objectively
> > > > >> measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a
> specific
> > > > >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor
> > > > >> whatever you
want,
> > > > >> but the only way to objectively combine all the
> > > > >> factors is to say
> that
> > > > >> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
> > > > >
> > > > >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench
> > > > >press has the
> > > strongest
> > > > >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or
> > > > >even
necessarily
> the
> > > > >best indicator of upper body strength.
> > > > >
> > > > >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
> > > > >bench press.
> Nothing
> > > > >more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total.
> > > > >And this
> applies to
> > > > >other sports as well. For many bench technicians who
> > > > >use the arch
> they
> > > > >have very little need of overall upper body strength
> > > > >- just triceps
> at
> > > > >lockout. They have huge benches with average upper
> > > > >body strength.
> > > > >
> > > > >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
> > > > >pull-up - which
is
> an
> > > > >indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict
> > > > >press
indicates
> > > upper
> > > > >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
> > > > >bench press is
> only
> > > > >one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to
> > > > >have a good
bench
> > > press
> > > > >without extraordinary upper body strength.
> > > >
> > > > And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
> > > > calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower
> > > > body strength.
> > > >
> > > > But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> > > > effectively change what I'm saying. You know the
> > > > records; you've seen the lifters; and you know that
> > > > there tends to be a division, even
amongst
> > > > those in powersports. It's also one of the reasons
> > > > that most meets have separate bench press
> > > > competitions. Unweighted scoring favors lower body
> > > > lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the
> > > > best totals.
> > >
> > > yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower
> > > body lifts (ok,
> dead is
> > > mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper
> > > body lift.
> > >
> > > if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
> > > squat or...
> > >
> > > bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
> > > squat or...
> > >
> > > well, you get the point.
> > >
> > > i think powerlifting is less biased towards lower body
> > > than ol'ing. especially with the 'modern technique' (2nd
> > > knee bend, thigh brush,
> etc.)
> > > the upper body really is not taxed enough imo
> >
> > BRING BACK THE PRESS!!
> >
> > :^)
> >
> > (I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on
> > that!)
> >
> > --
> > Keith Hobman
>
> well, i should argue just to eliminate the possibility of
> actually
agreeing
> with you, but when you're right, you're right.
>
Hey Whitney, there is somebody pretending to be you in
this thread!!

[David Cohe]

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nada-spam*@comcast.net> wrote
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote
> > "Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote

<SNIP ABOUT 8 KB>

> > > (I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on
> > > that!)
> >
> > well, i should argue just to eliminate the possibility of
> > actually
> agreeing
> > with you, but when you're right, you're right.
> >
> Hey Whitney, there is somebody pretending to be you in this
> thread!!

No. It's the Antisnipinator himself.

David

[Whit]

"David Cohen" <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Bkf2b.2411$3E.1605@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nada-spam*@comcast.net> wrote
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote
> > > "Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote
>
> <SNIP ABOUT 8 KB>
>
> > > > (I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on
> > > > that!)
> > >
> > > well, i should argue just to eliminate the possibility
> > > of actually
> > agreeing
> > > with you, but when you're right, you're right.
> > >
> > Hey Whitney, there is somebody pretending to be you in
> > this thread!!
>
> No. It's the Antisnipinator himself.
>
> David

in the flesh, baybee.

whit

[Kirk Roy]

Will <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
> Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue powerlifting.
> Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
>
> First off, I am crappy at weight management. I get paranoid
> and overdo the weight cutting measures the week before a
> meet...although I think the scale I rely on at home may be
> weighing a little heavy as well. Whatever the exact reasons,
> I competed in the 220 lb class weighing in at...
>
> 211. (At a hair over 6 feet tall)
>
> Yikes! I was in the mid 220s at the start of the month. That
> shook me up a bit. And while it's no excuse, my coach bailed
> on me at the last minute.

I want what you got. I could lift in the 165s! :)

> Despite the weight loss I didn't feel too bad but my bench
> shirt felt really loose. My warmup with 275 touched easily,
> I'm used to needing at least 315 to be sure to touch.
>
> Opened at 319...smoked it. Figured I'd be good for 353.
> Figured wrong. First time I'm told I brought it down too
> high on my chest. Got it halfway up and stalled out. Third
> attempt hit where it should but stalled out again, and I
> probably cut the pause short anyway. Crap. I've done a solid
> 350 in the gym, but I weighed a lot more than 211 at the
> time. My bench shirt didn't leave a single mark on my body,
> a sure sign it's too loose now.
>
> At least I hit my goal of 1.5x bodyweight at a meet...but
> this is not how I wanted to do it.
>
> Similar story for the deadlift. With no coach and feeling so
> underweight I decided to stick with my play it safe, raw
> attempt strategy. Opened with 408 and got it ok. Next was
> 424, double bodyweight. Got it, but it was way harder than
> it should have been. I got it moving and just refused to
> stop despite fighting it for what felt like an
> eternity...probably 6 seconds or so. Got a lot of support
> from the crowd. It really says something about the
> comraderie of powerlifting that I got a ton of applause and
> personal congratulations for busting my butt to complete
> what is quite frankly a very unimpressive lift. Just for the
> hell of it I asked for 452 for my third and stuffed myself
> into my Metal Deadlifter as fast as I could. Got the bar to
> my knees and tried my damnedest not to give up on it as I
> fought the straps until the fingers on my right hand peeled
> open. I think I need some custom work to get a deadlift suit
> that works for me, a 54 Metal is way too loose on my hips
> and thighs but the straps on the 52 kill me.
>
> So, mixed feelings at the end of the day. Once again I seem
> to have left my best lifts in the gym, but at least I'm
> improving. I need to be a lot less stupid about weight
> management and figure out how to peak for meets rather than
> test days in the gym. I am starting to think the instensity
> during the last two weeks of the peaking phase in Sheiko is
> just too low, at least for me. It feels strange going into a
> meet not having lifted anything really heavy for two weeks,
> especially considering i do better on test days in the
> middle of normal training weeks.
>
> And next meet I'm lifting at whatever I weigh fully fed,
> even if it means lifting in the 242's at 220.7.

Sounds like you're learning. After you've applied the things
you've learned so far you'll be kicking it up quite a bit.

Good job!

Kirk

[Hoff]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote in message
news:bic771$7sh8q$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > And just for the record (cuz I don't really remember), did
> > Whit use a
> shirt
> > to bench?
> >
> > Hoff
>
> no.
>
> raw as a mf'er.
>
> well, i did use a belt.
>
> but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
>

Just wondering. If you're going to compare lifts, should be
apples to apples.

> if i do another pling meet, i would like to do...
>
> 535 deadlift 335 bench press 445 squat.
>
> raw
>
> the squat is low because i will refuse to do some candyass
> pl'er style squat. i will do a real ol'er squat, and suffer
> the lower total for the sake of handsomeness and style.
>

Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
Squat/Total. You can up them next year; I think the AAU World
Meet is heading back to the left coast somewhere.

Hoff

[John M . W]

Will <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
>> "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> wrote in message
>> news:b70jkv8pp7o3f8hba2n09vcv6ti0d7hrf0@4ax.com...
>> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> > >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> > >wrote:
>> > >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> > >> > John M. Williams
>> > >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> > >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> > >> >> > John M. Williams
>> > >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
>> > >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
>> > >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to
>> > >> >> >> >> >> >your bench.
>> > >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
>> > >> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but
>> you
>> > >> >> >> >> >> >"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
>> > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
>> > >> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
>> > >thinking. I
>> > >> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
>> > >> >> >> >> >> that. But it
>> ignores
>> > >that
>> > >> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body
>> > >> >> >> >> >> strength, while others
>> have
>> > >better
>> > >> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
>> > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
>> > >> >> >> >> >necessarily training
>> > >related.
>> > >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
>> > >> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
>> > >relation to a
>> > >> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison -
>> > >> >> >> >> >powerlifters, since they
>> > >compete in
>> > >> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
>> > >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
>> > >> >> >> >> >disproportional
>> vis
>> > >a visw
>> > >> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most
>> > >> >> >> >> >> powerlifting associations.
>> > >The best
>> > >> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
>> > >> >> >> >> >> held by the same
>> > >person,
>> > >> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
>> > >> >> >> >> >> bench press.
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best
>> > >> >> >> >> bench-pressers have a similar distribution of
>> > >> >> >> >> lifts. They may not have the best totals, but
>> as
>> > >I
>> > >> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors
>> > >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
>> > >> >> >> >significantly
>> more,
>> > >in
>> > >> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he
>> > >> >> >> >is
>> > >disproportional.
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
>> > >> >> >> >compared to
>> upper
>> > >body,
>> > >> >> >> >after all
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
>> > >> >> >> Compare the
>> lifts
>> > >> >> >> from our respective first meets. You had a
>> > >> >> >> deadlift that was a
>> > >solid
>> > >> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
>> > >> >> >> press. And
>> that
>> > >was
>> > >> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
>> > >> >> >> according to
>> Aaron,
>> > >> >> >> should yield opposite results.
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
>> > >> >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
>> > >> >> >> strength. As I said, check the
>> record
>> > >> >> >> lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see
>> > >> >> >> what I mean.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press
>> > >> >> >- more so than
>> the
>> > >> >> >deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
>> > >> >> >bench press
>> without
>> > >> >> >extraordinary upper body strength.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept,
>> > >> >> involving not only muscle fiber content, but also
>> > >> >> neuromuscular adaptation (firing rates,
>> > >> >> recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue, mental
>> > >> >> state, and knowledge/application of technique. The
>> > >> >> only reasonable way to objectively measure it is
>> > >> >> outcome: how much one can lift in a
>> specific
>> > >> >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor
>> > >> >> whatever you want, but the only way to objectively
>> > >> >> combine all the factors is to say
>> that
>> > >> >> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench
>> > >> >press has the
>> > >strongest
>> > >> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or
>> > >> >even necessarily
>> the
>> > >> >best indicator of upper body strength.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
>> > >> >bench press.
>> Nothing
>> > >> >more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total.
>> > >> >And this applies
>> to
>> > >> >other sports as well. For many bench technicians who
>> > >> >use the arch they have very little need of overall
>> > >> >upper body strength - just triceps at lockout. They
>> > >> >have huge benches with average upper body strength.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
>> > >> >pull-up - which is
>> an
>> > >> >indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict
>> > >> >press indicates
>> > >upper
>> > >> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
>> > >> >bench press is
>> only
>> > >> >one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to
>> > >> >have a good bench
>> > >press
>> > >> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
>> > >>
>> > >> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
>> > >> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower
>> > >> body strength.
>> > >>
>> > >> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
>> > >> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the
>> > >> records; you've seen the lifters; and you know that
>> > >> there tends to be a division, even amongst those in
>> > >> powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most
>> > >> meets have separate bench press competitions.
>> > >> Unweighted scoring favors lower body lifts, and the
>> > >> best bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.
>> > >
>> > >yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower
>> > >body lifts (ok, dead
>> is
>> > >mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper
>> > >body lift.
>> > >
>> > >if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
>> > >squat or...
>> > >
>> > >bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
>> > >squat or...
>> >
>> > Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
>> > addition to the matter already under discussion, but
>> > Keith's comment about pullups made me think again about
>> > this proposition, which I have thought about many times
>> > before ...
>> >
>> > Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting;
>> > it's a major compound lift like the others, and the
>> > parameters of the lift could be judged very easily --
>> > dead drop to hooking the chin over the bar.
>> >
>> > We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know
>> > why. Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
>> > big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get
>> > a single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty
>> > squats and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over
>> > bodyweight, would dilute the living shit out of their
>> > totals.
>
>How exactly does your 100 lb weighted chin "dilute the shit"
>out of some fat monster's 800+ lb squat? I can maybe see the
>argument that all these guys would bomb such a meet, but if
>you gave him a zero his total would still far surpass most
>pull up specialists'.

[1] I said "dilute" not "destroy."
[2] In case you hadn't noticed, there aren't many 800+
squats.
[3] In more realistic terms, look at someone who tends to
excel more at bench press. His bench may be 50 more than
the bottom heavy guys, and he's still doing a full meet,
but he's trailing those guys by 150 in the squat and
deadlift. That's what I mean by "dilute," Will. We aren't
doing a head-to-head comparison of the heaviest lift to
the lightest lift.

[John M. Wi]

"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote in message
> news:bic771$7sh8q$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > > And just for the record (cuz I don't really remember),
> > > did Whit use a
> > shirt
> > > to bench?
> > >
> > > Hoff
> >
> > no.
> >
> > raw as a mf'er.
> >
> > well, i did use a belt.
> >
> > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
>
> Just wondering.

No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were being a bitch.

I plan to go raw after my last bad experience with a bench
shirt. Soon, you won't have anything to whine about.

[Robert Dor]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:00:08 -0600, khobman@sasktel.net (Keith
Hobman) wrote:

>In article <b70jkv8pp7o3f8hba2n09vcv6ti0d7hrf0@4ax.com>, John
>M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>
>> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> >> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> >> >> > John M. Williams
>> >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
>> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
>> >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to
>> >> >> >> >> >> >your bench.
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
>> >> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but you "smoked" a 319 bp,
>> >> >> >> >> >> >albeit with a shirt
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
>> >> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
>> >thinking. I
>> >> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
>> >> >> >> >> >> that. But it ignores
>> >that
>> >> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body strength,
>> >> >> >> >> >> while others have
>> >better
>> >> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
>> >> >> >> >> >necessarily training
>> >related.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
>> >> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
>> >relation to a
>> >> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
>> >> >> >> >> >since they
>> >compete in
>> >> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
>> >> >> >> >> >disproportional vis
>> >a visw
>> >> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most
>> >> >> >> >> >> powerlifting associations.
>> >The best
>> >> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
>> >> >> >> >> >> held by the same
>> >person,
>> >> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
>> >> >> >> >> >> bench press.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers
>> >> >> >> >> have a similar distribution of lifts. They may
>> >> >> >> >> not have the best totals, but as
>> >I
>> >> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower
>> >> >> >> >> body strength.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
>> >> >> >> >significantly more,
>> >in
>> >> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he
>> >> >> >> >is
>> >disproportional.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
>> >> >> >> >compared to upper
>> >body,
>> >> >> >> >after all
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
>> >> >> >> Compare the lifts from our respective first meets.
>> >> >> >> You had a deadlift that was a
>> >solid
>> >> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
>> >> >> >> press. And that
>> >was
>> >> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
>> >> >> >> according to Aaron, should yield opposite results.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
>> >> >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
>> >> >> >> strength. As I said, check the record lifts in
>> >> >> >> several PL associations, and you'll see what I
>> >> >> >> mean.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press -
>> >> >> >more so than the deadlift. So its also possible to
>> >> >> >be have a good bench press without extraordinary
>> >> >> >upper body strength.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving
>> >> >> not only muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular
>> >> >> adaptation (firing rates, recruitment, etc.),
>> >> >> tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
>> >> >> knowledge/application of technique. The only
>> >> >> reasonable way to objectively measure it is outcome:
>> >> >> how much one can lift in a specific movement. You can
>> >> >> tweak the definition to favor whatever you want, but
>> >> >> the only way to objectively combine all the factors
>> >> >> is to say that whoever lifts the most is the
>> >> >> strongest.
>> >> >
>> >> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench
>> >> >press has the
>> >strongest
>> >> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or
>> >> >even necessarily the best indicator of upper body
>> >> >strength.
>> >> >
>> >> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
>> >> >bench press. Nothing more or less. Ditto for squat and
>> >> >deadlift and total. And this applies to other sports as
>> >> >well. For many bench technicians who use the arch they
>> >> >have very little need of overall upper body strength -
>> >> >just triceps at lockout. They have huge benches with
>> >> >average upper body strength.
>> >> >
>> >> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
>> >> >pull-up - which is an indicator of upper body strength
>> >> >as well. The strict press indicates
>> >upper
>> >> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
>> >> >bench press is only one of them. So I say it again - it
>> >> >is possible to have a good bench
>> >press
>> >> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
>> >>
>> >> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
>> >> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower body
>> >> strength.
>> >>
>> >> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
>> >> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the
>> >> records; you've seen the lifters; and you know that
>> >> there tends to be a division, even amongst those in
>> >> powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most
>> >> meets have separate bench press competitions. Unweighted
>> >> scoring favors lower body lifts, and the best
>> >> bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.
>> >
>> >yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
>> >lifts (ok, dead is mostly lower body and lower back) and
>> >only one upper body lift.
>> >
>> >if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
>> >squat or...
>> >
>> >bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
>> >squat or...
>>
>> Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
>> addition to the matter already under discussion, but
>> Keith's comment about pullups made me think again about
>> this proposition, which I have thought about many times
>> before ...
>>
>> Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting;
>> it's a major compound lift like the others, and the
>> parameters of the lift could be judged very easily -- dead
>> drop to hooking the chin over the bar.
>>
>> We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know why.
>> Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
>> big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get a
>> single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty
>> squats and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over
>> bodyweight, would dilute the living shit out of their
>> totals.
>>
>> This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength
>> vs. lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift powerlifting,
>> by its nature, attracts those whose predominant strength is
>> in the lower body. The bench press is added to "round
>> things out," but we all know it doesn't significantly add
>> to the totals compared to the other lifts. And from this, I
>> draw the following conclusions:
>>
>> [1] It is not reasonable to compare the spread between
>> bench press
>> vs. deadlift or bench press vs. squat with the standards of
>> most powerlifters because, for them, those numbers are
>> already skewed.
>>
>> [2] Weighted chins, although a perfect lift for
>> powerlifting, will never be added because it would
>> seriously dilute the totals of the classic
>> bottom-heavy lifters who are most attracted to
>> powerlifting.
>
>In almost every sport the legs are more important than the
>upper body - why should powerlifting be different?

Because John has a relatively strong upper-body, and he wants
to win a masters contest.

;-)

[Lisa]

"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote ...
> > raw as a mf'er.
> >
> > well, i did use a belt.
> >
> > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
>snip
> >
> > the squat is low because i will refuse to do some candyass
> > pl'er style squat. i will do a real ol'er squat, and
> > suffer the lower total for the sake of handsomeness and
> > style.

And they say wimmins will suffer for beauty. ;-p

>
> Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
> Squat/Total. You can
up
> them next year; I think the AAU World Meet is heading back
> to the left
coast
> somewhere.

He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After style, it's
the coming out on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer. It's a
mesomorphic behavioral trait in him. <ducking>
---
Lisa tho' that whole 'left coast' thang sounds promising

[Keith Hobm]

In article <b70jkv8pp7o3f8hba2n09vcv6ti0d7hrf0@4ax.com>, John
M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >"John M. Williams"
> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> >> > John M. Williams
> >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to your
> >> >> >> >> >> >bench.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> >> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but you "smoked" a 319 bp,
> >> >> >> >> >> >albeit with a shirt
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> >> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
> >thinking. I
> >> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> >> >> >> >> >> that. But it ignores
> >that
> >> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body strength,
> >> >> >> >> >> while others have
> >better
> >> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> >> >> >> >> >necessarily training
> >related.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> >> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
> >relation to a
> >> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters,
> >> >> >> >> >since they
> >compete in
> >> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> >> >> >> >> >disproportional vis
> >a visw
> >> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting
> >> >> >> >> >> associations.
> >The best
> >> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
> >> >> >> >> >> held by the same
> >person,
> >> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
> >> >> >> >> >> bench press.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best bench-pressers
> >> >> >> >> have a similar distribution of lifts. They may
> >> >> >> >> not have the best totals, but as
> >I
> >> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower
> >> >> >> >> body strength.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> >> >> >> >significantly more,
> >in
> >> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is
> >disproportional.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> >> >> >> >compared to upper
> >body,
> >> >> >> >after all
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> >> >> >> Compare the lifts from our respective first meets.
> >> >> >> You had a deadlift that was a
> >solid
> >> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> >> >> >> press. And that
> >was
> >> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> >> >> >> according to Aaron, should yield opposite results.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> >> >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
> >> >> >> strength. As I said, check the record lifts in
> >> >> >> several PL associations, and you'll see what I
> >> >> >> mean.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press -
> >> >> >more so than the deadlift. So its also possible to be
> >> >> >have a good bench press without extraordinary upper
> >> >> >body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving
> >> >> not only muscle fiber content, but also neuromuscular
> >> >> adaptation (firing rates, recruitment, etc.),
> >> >> tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
> >> >> knowledge/application of technique. The only
> >> >> reasonable way to objectively measure it is outcome:
> >> >> how much one can lift in a specific movement. You can
> >> >> tweak the definition to favor whatever you want, but
> >> >> the only way to objectively combine all the factors is
> >> >> to say that whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
> >> >
> >> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press
> >> >has the
> >strongest
> >> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even
> >> >necessarily the best indicator of upper body strength.
> >> >
> >> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
> >> >bench press. Nothing more or less. Ditto for squat and
> >> >deadlift and total. And this applies to other sports as
> >> >well. For many bench technicians who use the arch they
> >> >have very little need of overall upper body strength -
> >> >just triceps at lockout. They have huge benches with
> >> >average upper body strength.
> >> >
> >> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
> >> >pull-up - which is an indicator of upper body strength
> >> >as well. The strict press indicates
> >upper
> >> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
> >> >bench press is only one of them. So I say it again - it
> >> >is possible to have a good bench
> >press
> >> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
> >>
> >> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
> >> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower body
> >> strength.
> >>
> >> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> >> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the records;
> >> you've seen the lifters; and you know that there tends to
> >> be a division, even amongst those in powersports. It's
> >> also one of the reasons that most meets have separate
> >> bench press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors lower
> >> body lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the
> >> best totals.
> >
> >yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
> >lifts (ok, dead is mostly lower body and lower back) and
> >only one upper body lift.
> >
> >if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
> >squat or...
> >
> >bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
> >squat or...
>
> Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
> addition to the matter already under discussion, but
> Keith's comment about pullups made me think again about
> this proposition, which I have thought about many times
> before ...
>
> Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting;
> it's a major compound lift like the others, and the
> parameters of the lift could be judged very easily -- dead
> drop to hooking the chin over the bar.
>
> We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know why.
> Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
> big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get a
> single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty squats
> and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over bodyweight,
> would dilute the living shit out of their totals.
>
> This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength vs.
> lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift powerlifting, by
> its nature, attracts those whose predominant strength is in
> the lower body. The bench press is added to "round things
> out," but we all know it doesn't significantly add to the
> totals compared to the other lifts. And from this, I draw
> the following conclusions:
>
> [1] It is not reasonable to compare the spread between
> bench press
> vs. deadlift or bench press vs. squat with the standards of
> most powerlifters because, for them, those numbers are
> already skewed.
>
> [2] Weighted chins, although a perfect lift for
> powerlifting, will never be added because it would
> seriously dilute the totals of the classic bottom-heavy
> lifters who are most attracted to powerlifting.

In almost every sport the legs are more important than the
upper body - why should powerlifting be different?

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[Keith Hobm]

In article <tn5kkv0dufi58751getvs3qjc9pgjemg66@4ax.com>,
Robert Dorf <robertdorf@japan.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:00:08 -0600, khobman@sasktel.net
> (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><b70jkv8pp7o3f8hba2n09vcv6ti0d7hrf0@4ax.com>, John M.
> >Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> >> > John M. Williams
> >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> >> >> > John M. Williams
> >> >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >your bench.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but you "smoked" a 319 bp,
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >albeit with a shirt
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> >> >> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
> >> >thinking. I
> >> >> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> >> >> >> >> >> >> that. But it
ignores
> >> >that
> >> >> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body
> >> >> >> >> >> >> strength, while
others have
> >> >better
> >> >> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> >> >> >> >> >> >necessarily training
> >> >related.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> >> >> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
> >> >relation to a
> >> >> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison -
> >> >> >> >> >> >powerlifters, since they
> >> >compete in
> >> >> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
disproportional vis
> >> >a visw
> >> >> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most
> >> >> >> >> >> >> powerlifting associations.
> >> >The best
> >> >> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
> >> >> >> >> >> >> held by the same
> >> >person,
> >> >> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
> >> >> >> >> >> >> bench press.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best
> >> >> >> >> >> bench-pressers have a similar distribution of
> >> >> >> >> >> lifts. They may not have the best
totals, but as
> >> >I
> >> >> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors
> >> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
significantly more,
> >> >in
> >> >> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he
> >> >> >> >> >is
> >> >disproportional.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> >> >> >> >> >compared to upper
> >> >body,
> >> >> >> >> >after all
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> >> >> >> >> Compare
the lifts
> >> >> >> >> from our respective first meets. You had a
> >> >> >> >> deadlift that was a
> >> >solid
> >> >> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> >> >> >> >> press. And that
> >> >was
> >> >> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> >> >> >> >> according
to Aaron,
> >> >> >> >> should yield opposite results.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> >> >> >> >> strength, while others have better lower body
> >> >> >> >> strength. As I said, check
the record
> >> >> >> >> lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see
> >> >> >> >> what I mean.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press
> >> >> >> >- more so than the deadlift. So its also possible
> >> >> >> >to be have a good bench press
without
> >> >> >> >extraordinary upper body strength.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept,
> >> >> >> involving not only muscle fiber content, but also
> >> >> >> neuromuscular adaptation (firing rates,
> >> >> >> recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue, mental
> >> >> >> state, and knowledge/application of technique. The
> >> >> >> only reasonable way to objectively measure it is
> >> >> >> outcome: how much one can lift in a
specific
> >> >> >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor
> >> >> >> whatever you want, but the only way to objectively
> >> >> >> combine all the factors is to
say that
> >> >> >> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench
> >> >> >press has the
> >> >strongest
> >> >> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or
> >> >> >even
necessarily the
> >> >> >best indicator of upper body strength.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
> >> >> >bench press.
Nothing
> >> >> >more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total.
> >> >> >And this
applies to
> >> >> >other sports as well. For many bench technicians who
> >> >> >use the arch they have very little need of overall
> >> >> >upper body strength - just triceps at lockout. They
> >> >> >have huge benches with average upper body strength.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
> >> >> >pull-up - which is an indicator of upper body
> >> >> >strength as well. The strict press indicates
> >> >upper
> >> >> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
> >> >> >bench press
is only
> >> >> >one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to
> >> >> >have a good bench
> >> >press
> >> >> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
> >> >> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower
> >> >> body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> >> >> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the
> >> >> records; you've seen the lifters; and you know that
> >> >> there tends to be a division, even amongst those in
> >> >> powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most
> >> >> meets have separate bench press competitions.
> >> >> Unweighted scoring favors lower body lifts, and the
> >> >> best bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.
> >> >
> >> >yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower
> >> >body lifts (ok,
dead is
> >> >mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper
> >> >body lift.
> >> >
> >> >if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
> >> >squat or...
> >> >
> >> >bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
> >> >squat or...
> >>
> >> Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
> >> addition to the matter already under discussion, but
> >> Keith's comment about pullups made me think again about
> >> this proposition, which I have thought about many times
> >> before ...
> >>
> >> Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting;
> >> it's a major compound lift like the others, and the
> >> parameters of the lift could be judged very easily --
> >> dead drop to hooking the chin over the bar.
> >>
> >> We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know
> >> why. Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
> >> big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get
> >> a single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty
> >> squats and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over
> >> bodyweight, would dilute the living shit out of their
> >> totals.
> >>
> >> This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength
> >> vs. lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift
> >> powerlifting, by its nature, attracts those whose
> >> predominant strength is in the lower body. The bench
> >> press is added to "round things out," but we all know it
> >> doesn't significantly add to the totals compared to the
> >> other lifts. And from this, I draw the following
> >> conclusions:
> >>
> >> [1] It is not reasonable to compare the spread between
> >> bench press
> >> vs. deadlift or bench press vs. squat with the standards
> >> of most powerlifters because, for them, those numbers
> >> are already skewed.
> >>
> >> [2] Weighted chins, although a perfect lift for
> >> powerlifting, will never be added because it would
> >> seriously dilute the totals of the classic
> >> bottom-heavy lifters who are most attracted to
> >> powerlifting.
> >
> >In almost every sport the legs are more important than the
> >upper body - why should powerlifting be different?
>
> Because John has a relatively strong upper-body, and he
> wants to win a masters contest.

I still ain't seeing it. Pulling 100 lbs plus bodyweight isn't
going to be tough for any of the under 220 lb lifters. I
suspect it would be easy to get up into the 200 lbs range with
a little training. The only lifters that would have a problem
with it would be the really big guys.

I still think its not a bad idea. But I think John's problem
is the same as the rest of us (or mine anyhow).

I have to get stronger.

:^)

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[John M. Wi]

"Robert Dorf" <robertdorf@japan.com> wrote:
> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >John M. Williams
> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> >> > John M. Williams
> >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> >> >> > John M. Williams
> >> >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> >> >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >your bench.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but
you
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> >> >> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
> >> >thinking. I
> >> >> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> >> >> >> >> >> >> that. But it
ignores
> >> >that
> >> >> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body
> >> >> >> >> >> >> strength, while
others have
> >> >better
> >> >> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> >> >> >> >> >> >necessarily
training
> >> >related.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> >> >> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
> >> >relation to a
> >> >> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison -
> >> >> >> >> >> >powerlifters, since they
> >> >compete in
> >> >> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
disproportional vis
> >> >a visw
> >> >> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most
> >> >> >> >> >> >> powerlifting
associations.
> >> >The best
> >> >> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
> >> >> >> >> >> >> held by the
same
> >> >person,
> >> >> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
> >> >> >> >> >> >> bench press.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best
> >> >> >> >> >> bench-pressers have a
similar
> >> >> >> >> >> distribution of lifts. They may not have the
> >> >> >> >> >> best totals,
but as
> >> >I
> >> >> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors
> >> >> >> >> >> lower body
strength.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> >> >> >> >> >significantly
more,
> >> >in
> >> >> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he
> >> >> >> >> >is
> >> >disproportional.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> >> >> >> >> >compared to
upper
> >> >body,
> >> >> >> >> >after all
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> >> >> >> >> Compare the
lifts
> >> >> >> >> from our respective first meets. You had a
> >> >> >> >> deadlift that was
a
> >> >solid
> >> >> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> >> >> >> >> press. And
that
> >> >was
> >> >> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> >> >> >> >> according to
Aaron,
> >> >> >> >> should yield opposite results.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> >> >> >> >> strength,
while
> >> >> >> >> others have better lower body strength. As I
> >> >> >> >> said, check the
record
> >> >> >> >> lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see
> >> >> >> >> what I mean.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press
> >> >> >> >- more so than
the
> >> >> >> >deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
> >> >> >> >bench press
without
> >> >> >> >extraordinary upper body strength.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept,
> >> >> >> involving not only
muscle
> >> >> >> fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation
> >> >> >> (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance for
> >> >> >> fatigue, mental state, and knowledge/application of
> >> >> >> technique. The only reasonable way to objectively
> >> >> >> measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a
specific
> >> >> >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor
> >> >> >> whatever you
want,
> >> >> >> but the only way to objectively combine all the
> >> >> >> factors is to say
that
> >> >> >> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench
> >> >> >press has the
> >> >strongest
> >> >> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or
> >> >> >even
necessarily the
> >> >> >best indicator of upper body strength.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
> >> >> >bench press.
Nothing
> >> >> >more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total.
> >> >> >And this
applies to
> >> >> >other sports as well. For many bench technicians who
> >> >> >use the arch
they
> >> >> >have very little need of overall upper body strength
> >> >> >- just triceps
at
> >> >> >lockout. They have huge benches with average upper
> >> >> >body strength.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
> >> >> >pull-up - which
is an
> >> >> >indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict
> >> >> >press
indicates
> >> >upper
> >> >> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
> >> >> >bench press is
only
> >> >> >one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to
> >> >> >have a good
bench
> >> >press
> >> >> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
> >> >> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower
> >> >> body strength.
> >> >>
> >> >> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> >> >> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the
> >> >> records; you've seen the lifters; and you know that
> >> >> there tends to be a division, even
amongst
> >> >> those in powersports. It's also one of the reasons
> >> >> that most meets have separate bench press
> >> >> competitions. Unweighted scoring favors lower body
> >> >> lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the
> >> >> best totals.
> >> >
> >> >yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower
> >> >body lifts (ok,
dead is
> >> >mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper
> >> >body lift.
> >> >
> >> >if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
> >> >squat or...
> >> >
> >> >bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
> >> >squat or...
> >>
> >> Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
> >> addition to the matter already under discussion, but
> >> Keith's comment about pullups made me think again about
> >> this proposition, which I have thought about many times
> >> before ...
> >>
> >> Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting;
> >> it's a major compound lift like the others, and the
> >> parameters of the lift could be judged very easily --
> >> dead drop to hooking the chin over the bar.
> >>
> >> We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know
> >> why. Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
> >> big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get
> >> a single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty
> >> squats and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over
> >> bodyweight, would dilute the living shit out of their
> >> totals.
> >>
> >> This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength
> >> vs. lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift
> >> powerlifting, by its nature, attracts those whose
> >> predominant strength is in the lower body. The bench
> >> press is added to "round things out," but we all know it
> >> doesn't significantly add to the totals compared to the
> >> other lifts. And from this, I draw the following
> >> conclusions:
> >>
> >> [1] It is not reasonable to compare the spread between
> >> bench press
> >> vs. deadlift or bench press vs. squat with the standards
> >> of most powerlifters because, for them, those numbers
> >> are already skewed.
> >>
> >> [2] Weighted chins, although a perfect lift for
> >> powerlifting, will never be added because it would
> >> seriously dilute the totals of the classic
> >> bottom-heavy lifters who are most attracted to
> >> powerlifting.
> >
> >In almost every sport the legs are more important than the
> >upper body - why should powerlifting be different?
>
> Because John has a relatively strong upper-body, and he
> wants to win a masters contest.

I can accomplish that with single-lift competitions or a NASA
Powersports competition. I'm just throwing a few stones at at
the classic MFW powerlifting biases. Someone has to do it
every once in a while, and Whit's comment on the "spread"
between Will's bench press and deadlift was a good segue.

[Robert Dor]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:30:08 -0400, "John M. Williams"
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

>
>"Robert Dorf" <robertdorf@japan.com> wrote:
>> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

>> >In almost every sport the legs are more important than the
>> >upper body - why should powerlifting be different?
>>
>> Because John has a relatively strong upper-body, and he
>> wants to win a masters contest.
>
>I can accomplish that with single-lift competitions or a NASA
>Powersports competition. I'm just throwing a few stones at at
>the classic MFW powerlifting biases. Someone has to do it
>every once in a while, and Whit's comment on the "spread"
>between Will's bench press and deadlift was a good segue.
>
I recognized the pot stirring John.

;-)

[Hoff]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:vkk55ts1jobp36@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote in message
> > news:bic771$7sh8q$1@ID-181351.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't really remember),
> > > > did Whit use
a
> > > shirt
> > > > to bench?
> > > >
> > > > Hoff
> > >
> > > no.
> > >
> > > raw as a mf'er.
> > >
> > > well, i did use a belt.
> > >
> > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> >
> > Just wondering.
>
> No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were being a
> bitch.
>

Aww. It was just an innocent question...

Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make comparisons,
when one is assisted and one isn't.

I went and looked up Whit's lifts, and I think he benched 291
or so, raw. I think you benched 300, with a shirt.

None of which changes the most important fact: my bench sucks.

> I plan to go raw after my last bad experience with a bench
> shirt. Soon, you won't have anything to whine about.
>

'Bout time you butched up ;)

Hoff

[Robert Dor]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:44:39 -0400, "John M. Williams"
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

>
>"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "John M. Williams"
>> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't really
>> > > > > remember), did Whit
>use
>> a
>> > > > shirt
>> > > > > to bench?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Hoff
>> > > >
>> > > > no.
>> > > >
>> > > > raw as a mf'er.
>> > > >
>> > > > well, i did use a belt.
>> > > >
>> > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
>> > >
>> > > Just wondering.
>> >
>> > No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were being a
>> > bitch.
>>
>> Aww. It was just an innocent question...
>>
>> Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make
>> comparisons, when one is assisted and one isn't.
>
>You appear to be one of those who are convinced that bench
>shirts contain hydraulic pistons.
>
Those come as optional extras.

Also, Ivanko is coming out with Rocket Pants (tm).

[Hoff]

"Lisa" <fd4thawt@earthlink.zappspam.net> wrote in message
news:kFt2b.3295$3E.1160@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote ...
> > > raw as a mf'er.
> > >
> > > well, i did use a belt.
> > >
> > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> >snip
> > >
> > > the squat is low because i will refuse to do some
> > > candyass pl'er style squat. i will do a real ol'er
> > > squat, and suffer the lower total for
the
> > > sake of handsomeness and style.
>
> And they say wimmins will suffer for beauty. ;-p
>
> >
> > Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
> > Squat/Total. You
can
> up
> > them next year; I think the AAU World Meet is heading back
> > to the left
> coast
> > somewhere.
>
> He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After style, it's
> the coming
out
> on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer. It's a mesomorphic
> behavioral trait in him. <ducking>

Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many* classes,
Mil/Law being only one of many. Add Lifetime, maybe an age
group (dunno how old), and trophies for everyone!

> ---
> Lisa tho' that whole 'left coast' thang sounds promising

I think Martin Drake posted it'll be in Laughlin, beginning of
Dec next year.

Hoff

[John M. Wi]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote:
> John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote:
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > >> > John M. Williams
> > >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > >> >> > John M. Williams
> > >> >> > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> >"John M. Williams"
> > >> >> >> >> ><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> >> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >> >your deadlift is way disproportional to
> > >> >> >> >> >> >your bench.
> > >> >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >> >you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs
> > >> >> >> >> >> >bodyweight, but
you
> > >> >> >> >> >> >"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body
> > >> >> >> >> >> powerlifter
> > >thinking. I
> > >> >> >> >> >> realize that powerlifting scoring favors
> > >> >> >> >> >> that. But it
ignores
> > >that
> > >> >> >> >> >> some people have better upper body
> > >> >> >> >> >> strength, while others
have
> > >better
> > >> >> >> >> >> lower body strength.
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >i am aware of that. i didn't say it was
> > >> >> >> >> >necessarily
training
> > >related.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >i said it was disproportional. it IS
> > >> >> >> >> >disproportional, in
> > >relation to a
> > >> >> >> >> >reasonable group of comparison -
> > >> >> >> >> >powerlifters, since they
> > >compete in
> > >> >> >> >> >bench and dead (and squat)
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >it's not disproportional for many, but it's
> > >> >> >> >> >disproportional
vis
> > >a visw
> > >> >> >> >> >powerlifting, or push-pull meets.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> No. If you read what I said below ...
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> Look at the record lifts in most
> > >> >> >> >> >> powerlifting
associations.
> > >The best
> > >> >> >> >> >> totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently
> > >> >> >> >> >> held by the
same
> > >person,
> > >> >> >> >> >> but that person almost never has the best
> > >> >> >> >> >> bench press.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> ... you would find that the best
> > >> >> >> >> bench-pressers have a
similar
> > >> >> >> >> distribution of lifts. They may not have the
> > >> >> >> >> best totals,
but as
> > >I
> > >> >> >> >> said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower
> > >> >> >> >> body
strength.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >ok. i see what you mean.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >do you not think that MOST people can deadlift
> > >> >> >> >significantly
more,
> > >in
> > >> >> >> >relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he
> > >> >> >> >is
> > >disproportional.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >most people ARE much stronger in their lower as
> > >> >> >> >compared to
upper
> > >body,
> > >> >> >> >after all
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Stronger, yes, but with different distributions.
> > >> >> >> Compare the
lifts
> > >> >> >> from our respective first meets. You had a
> > >> >> >> deadlift that was a
> > >solid
> > >> >> >> 85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench
> > >> >> >> press. And
that
> > >was
> > >> >> >> despite your short arms and my long arms, which,
> > >> >> >> according to
Aaron,
> > >> >> >> should yield opposite results.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body
> > >> >> >> strength,
while
> > >> >> >> others have better lower body strength. As I
> > >> >> >> said, check the
record
> > >> >> >> lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see
> > >> >> >> what I mean.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press -
> > >> >> >more so than
the
> > >> >> >deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good
> > >> >> >bench press
without
> > >> >> >extraordinary upper body strength.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving
> > >> >> not only
muscle
> > >> >> fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation
> > >> >> (firing rates, recruitment, etc.), tolerance for
> > >> >> fatigue, mental state, and knowledge/application of
> > >> >> technique. The only reasonable way to objectively
> > >> >> measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a
specific
> > >> >> movement. You can tweak the definition to favor
> > >> >> whatever you
want,
> > >> >> but the only way to objectively combine all the
> > >> >> factors is to say
that
> > >> >> whoever lifts the most is the strongest.
> > >> >
> > >> >You can't say the person who has the biggest bench
> > >> >press has the
> > >strongest
> > >> >upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or
> > >> >even necessarily
the
> > >> >best indicator of upper body strength.
> > >> >
> > >> >All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest
> > >> >bench press.
Nothing
> > >> >more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total.
> > >> >And this
applies to
> > >> >other sports as well. For many bench technicians who
> > >> >use the arch
they
> > >> >have very little need of overall upper body strength -
> > >> >just triceps
at
> > >> >lockout. They have huge benches with average upper
> > >> >body strength.
> > >> >
> > >> >I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one
> > >> >pull-up - which is
an
> > >> >indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict
> > >> >press indicates
> > >upper
> > >> >body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the
> > >> >bench press is
only
> > >> >one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to
> > >> >have a good bench
> > >press
> > >> >without extraordinary upper body strength.
> > >>
> > >> And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny
> > >> calves, so they may not have *overall* better lower
> > >> body strength.
> > >>
> > >> But you know what I mean, and your observations don't
> > >> effectively change what I'm saying. You know the
> > >> records; you've seen the lifters; and you know that
> > >> there tends to be a division, even amongst those in
> > >> powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most
> > >> meets have separate bench press competitions.
> > >> Unweighted scoring favors lower body lifts, and the
> > >> best bench-pressers don't turn in the best totals.
> > >
> > >yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body
> > >lifts (ok,
dead is
> > >mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper body
> > >lift.
> > >
> > >if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and
> > >squat or...
> > >
> > >bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and
> > >squat or...
> >
> > Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in
> > addition to the matter already under discussion, but
> > Keith's comment about pullups made me think again about
> > this proposition, which I have thought about many times
> > before ...
> >
> > Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting;
> > it's a major compound lift like the others, and the
> > parameters of the lift could be judged very easily -- dead
> > drop to hooking the chin over the bar.
> >
> > We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know why.
> > Because the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the
> > big-legged fat guys who would be lucky if they could get a
> > single bodyweight chin. The guys like me, with shitty
> > squats and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100 over
> > bodyweight, would dilute the living shit out of their
> > totals.
> >
> > This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength
> > vs. lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift
> > powerlifting, by its nature, attracts those whose
> > predominant strength is in the lower body. The bench press
> > is added to "round things out," but we all know it doesn't
> > significantly add to the totals compared to the other
> > lifts. And from this, I draw the following conclusions:
> >
> > [1] It is not reasonable to compare the spread between
> > bench press
> > vs. deadlift or bench press vs. squat with the standards
> > of most powerlifters because, for them, those numbers
> > are already skewed.
> >
> > [2] Weighted chins, although a perfect lift for
> > powerlifting, will never be added because it would
> > seriously dilute the totals of the classic
> > bottom-heavy lifters who are most attracted to
> > powerlifting.
>
> In almost every sport the legs are more important than the
> upper body - why should powerlifting be different?

In many, perhaps the majority, but not "almost every sport." I
don't really enjoy many of the traditional team sports. I do
like boxing, though. And the rule doesn't apply there.

There are others, but I won't start listing them.

[Lee Michae]

"Robert Dorf" <robertdorf@japan.com> wrote in message
news:vd7kkvsd4cm9gfv5b96v6cnqi5o7pc5flo@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:30:08 -0400, "John M. Williams"
> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Robert Dorf" <robertdorf@japan.com> wrote:
> >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
> >> >In almost every sport the legs are more important than
> >> >the upper
body -
> >> >why should powerlifting be different?
> >>
> >> Because John has a relatively strong upper-body, and he
> >> wants to win a masters contest.
> >
> >I can accomplish that with single-lift competitions or a
> >NASA Powersports competition. I'm just throwing a few
> >stones at at the classic MFW powerlifting biases. Someone
> >has to do it every once in a while, and Whit's comment on
> >the "spread" between Will's bench press and deadlift was a
> >good segue.
> >
> I recognized the pot stirring John.
>
I thought it was because John considered himslef to be the
pretty boy bodybuilder type. And we all know those guys have
big benches and anemic legs. ;)

[John M. Wi]

"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "John M. Williams"
> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't really
> > > > > remember), did Whit
use
> a
> > > > shirt
> > > > > to bench?
> > > > >
> > > > > Hoff
> > > >
> > > > no.
> > > >
> > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > > >
> > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > > >
> > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > >
> > > Just wondering.
> >
> > No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were being a
> > bitch.
>
> Aww. It was just an innocent question...
>
> Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make comparisons,
> when one is assisted and one isn't.

You appear to be one of those who are convinced that bench
shirts contain hydraulic pistons.

[Theresa]

Robert Dorf wrote:

> Also, Ivanko is coming out with Rocket Pants (tm).

I thought Acme made those.

T

[John M . W]

khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

>In article <Bjr2b.257620$uu5.58958@sccrnsc04>, "Hoff"
><hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> wrote in message news:vkkfi31u0ou12b@corp.supernews.com...
>> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > "John M. Williams"
>> > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > > > "John M. Williams"
>> > > > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't really
>> > > > > > > > > remember), did
>> > Whit
>> > > > use
>> > > > > a
>> > > > > > > > shirt
>> > > > > > > > > to bench?
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Hoff
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > no.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > raw as a mf'er.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > well, i did use a belt.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Just wondering.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were
>> > > > > > being a bitch.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Aww. It was just an innocent question...
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make
>> > > > > comparisons, when
>> one
>> > is
>> > > > > assisted and one isn't.
>> > > >
>> > > > You appear to be one of those who are convinced that
>> > > > bench shirts contain hydraulic pistons.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Not at all, John.
>> > >
>> > > I'm sure it didn't add any lbs to your lifts
>> > > whatsoever.
>> >
>> > Ten pounds max. It does improve the ability to pause, but
>> > in the meets I've seen, I've noticed the judges giving
>> > the benefit of the doubt to the raw weenies, anyway. ;)
>>
>> Well, Sharon DID get a pretty iffy 2 whites last fall.
>>
>> I DO think enforcing the same pause on equipped vs raw is
>> pretty ludicrous. I mean, most guys have to load a certain
>> amount just to get the bar to *touch* with a shirt.
>>
>> Hell, the 45 lbs bar touches just fine when I bench.
>
>Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true of
>John's shirt. It certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a
>45 lb bar although i have to pull it a bit. In my case my
>weak point is lockoout, not off the chest. So I might get
>20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing my momentum and
>getting through my sticking point. OTOH - I can put my shirt
>on myself.

That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the chest-arm
design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a simple,
single-ply Inzer like mine.

http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm

Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)

>And also my lifting suits. I have to be careful the straps
>don't fall down before I squat. So I really don't wear that
>tight of gear.
>
>Every time I try and go tighter the gear causes problems -
>depth, blowouts, etc. So I'm resigned to not getting as much
>as some, but staying comfortable. Personally i would like to
>see gear banned, but that isn't going to happen.

And you don't lift raw because you would rather compete in the
divisions where they move the loads of which you are capable
... and they just don't move those types of loads in the raw
division. (Yes, I'm sure you can cite exceptions, but I'm
talking about the general rule.)

I think this is where Hoff is misled. I doubt very much that
Hoff has ever worn a bench shirt. And as to the pause, it
appears that he only goes to strictly raw meets, so he may not
see the difference in the judging. He does see the records in
the raw lifts and "equipped" lifts, and he assumes that the
difference is strictly a function of the equipment. He doesn't
realize that many of the guys who can move the heaviest loads
*never* lift in raw competitions.

[Keith Hobm]

In article <jYt2b.256624$o%2.117462@sccrnsc02>, "Hoff"
<hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Lisa" <fd4thawt@earthlink.zappspam.net> wrote in message
> news:kFt2b.3295$3E.1160@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote ...
> > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > > >
> > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > > >
> > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > >snip
> > > >
> > > > the squat is low because i will refuse to do some
> > > > candyass pl'er style squat. i will do a real ol'er
> > > > squat, and suffer the lower total for
> the
> > > > sake of handsomeness and style.
> >
> > And they say wimmins will suffer for beauty. ;-p
> >
> > >
> > > Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
> > > Squat/Total. You
> can
> > up
> > > them next year; I think the AAU World Meet is heading
> > > back to the left
> > coast
> > > somewhere.
> >
> > He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After style,
> > it's the coming
> out
> > on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer. It's a mesomorphic
> > behavioral trait in him. <ducking>
>
> Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many* classes,
> Mil/Law being only one of many. Add Lifetime, maybe an age
> group (dunno how old), and trophies for everyone!

Yeah, but that don't cut it. I suspect Whit is gonna agree on
me here too. You want to compete against a level playing
field, but within that playing field you want to compete with
the best. So I prefer not to compete against guys who use
steroids and I'd also prefer not to compete against guys using
suits and gear, but it seems all the good lifters do.

Within that - I don't want to be the best old man, or the best
old man with a badge, or the best old man with a badge who is
lifetime drug free. I want to be the best. I realize that this
isn't going to happen at my age
- but its what i want.

I'm happy if I can keep improving and I'm hooked on the
competitions themselves - the camraderie and social atmosphere
and the primitive nature of the competition (betcha can't lift
that!) - but I'd love to be the best. Even knowing it ain't
gonna happen.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[Omegazero2]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:15:33 -0400, "John M. Williams"
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

>"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote:
>> John M. Williams
>> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>> > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> > >
>> > >Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true
>> > >of John's shirt.
>It
>> > >certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a 45 lb bar
>> > >although i have
>to
>> > >pull it a bit. In my case my weak point is lockoout, not
>> > >off the chest.
>So
>> > >I might get 20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing my
>> > >momentum and getting through my sticking point. OTOH - I
>> > >can put my shirt on myself.
>> >
>> > That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
>> > effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the
>> > chest-arm design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a
>> > simple, single-ply Inzer like mine.
>> >
>> > http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
>> >
>> > Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)
>>
>> I've used both. If it wasn't for the stretch back I
>> wouldn't use a bench shirt. No way I'm going through the
>> shenanigans of getting into even a relatively loose shirt
>> without the stretch back. Inzer also makes a stretch back
>> product, BTW, if you prefer them. I'm waiting for Metal to
>> come out with a stretch back and then I'll use them for
>> everything. The squat suit is very comfortable and
>> effective, even relatively loose. If the shirt was the same
>> material I think its a winner. Has some stretch to it,
>> unlike the NXG which basically just stops you. I'm
>> confident of getting depth with the Metal product.
>>
>> As far as keeping me honest - you've never seen me get into
>> my shirt. If you did you'd know what I meant by loose. I
>> pull the arms on and get the shirt on like you get into a
>> pullover sweater. I have a slightly smaller one that I
>> haven't tried yet that I may use for competition. But the
>> Fury I've used so far is very loose.
>>
>> Gives me that extra little bit that gets me over 400. My
>> best raw bench has been 385 so far, while I've gotten 403
>> several times now in competition.
>
>"Loose" is subjective, Keith. I have a simple Inzer Blast
>shirt. I can pull the arms up to the shoulders by myself, and
>it doesn't take very long to do it. Lots of people would call
>that "loose." But it doesn't have a stretch back, and I can't
>get it over my head and shoulders with help. I don't think
>you can put on Inzer Blast shirt by yourself, either.
>

my Blast fuckin shirt stops me lifting my big black dildoe,
because of the limp restriction at the 25 degree angle of
my fuckin silly little prick, while i am pulling momma's
nightgown on. my lifts should be fucking cunting huge, but
my butt kinda gets feelin real good with my finga stuck up
there. should i take the fuckin Blast thing off and stick
to the finger, or should i stick with the shirt and try
usin ma thumb?

x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com x-- 3,500+
Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups x-- Access to
over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD

[John M. Wi]

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nada-spam*@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Robert Dorf" <robertdorf@japan.com> wrote:
> > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote:
> > >"Robert Dorf" <robertdorf@japan.com> wrote:
> > >> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >
> > >> >In almost every sport the legs are more important than
> > >> >the upper body - why should powerlifting be different?
> > >>
> > >> Because John has a relatively strong upper-body, and he
> > >> wants to win
a
> > >> masters contest.
> > >
> > >I can accomplish that with single-lift competitions or a
> > >NASA Powersports competition. I'm just throwing a few
> > >stones at at the classic MFW powerlifting biases. Someone
> > >has to do it every once in a while, and Whit's comment on
> > >the "spread" between Will's bench press and deadlift was
> > >a good segue.
> > >
> > I recognized the pot stirring John.
> >
> I thought it was because John considered himslef to be the
> pretty boy bodybuilder type. And we all know those guys have
> big benches and anemic legs. ;)

MFW used to be oriented a lot more evenly. In fact, during the
attempted hierarchy split around '96, some powerlifters were
really pushing for a separate newgroup within the hierarchy:
misc.fitness.weights.power+strength. When it didn't happen,
some fled to mailing lists. Since then, though, there's been a
gradual move to favor powerlifting. Not a bad thing overall,
and it was enough to get me involved. Still, it's good to try
and keep the influence in balance. Like I said, someone has to
take a shot at powerlifting biases every once in a while.

No, I don't mind "stirring the pot." But that doesn't mean I
don't have a valid reason.

[Hoff]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:vkkbn7q0mjg35c@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote:
> > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't really
> > > > > > remember), did Whit
> use
> > a
> > > > > shirt
> > > > > > to bench?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hoff
> > > > >
> > > > > no.
> > > > >
> > > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > > > >
> > > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > > > >
> > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > > >
> > > > Just wondering.
> > >
> > > No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were being a
> > > bitch.
> >
> > Aww. It was just an innocent question...
> >
> > Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make
> > comparisons, when one is assisted and one isn't.
>
> You appear to be one of those who are convinced that bench
> shirts contain hydraulic pistons.
>

Not at all, John.

I'm sure it didn't add any lbs to your lifts whatsoever.

Hoff

[Hoff]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote in message
news:irikkvoq5bs25t8ge8j59cuojbm2rn9a8u@4ax.com... <snip>
> I think this is where Hoff is misled. I doubt very much that
> Hoff has ever worn a bench shirt.

This much is true. Honestly doubt I ever will.

OTOH, Sharon will start after the AAU meet.

The difference being I have no delusions about being able
to ever compete against the top lifters, and I don't see
the point of artificially raising my totals. I lift what
I can lift.

Sharon, though, IMO stand a good chance of getting at least
into the top 3 of the 123 class in a year or so. She should
total somewhere around 650 raw in Oct. Given a another year,
working with equipment, I don't think 800 or so is out of
the question.

> And as to the pause, it appears that he only goes to
> strictly raw meets, so he may not see the difference in the
> judging.

No, have never been to a strictly raw meet. Raw and equipped
are always lifiting basically side by side.

Haven't ever really noticed differences in judging within a
meet, outside of the differences between individual judges.

> He does see the records in the raw lifts and "equipped"
> lifts, and he assumes that the difference is strictly a
> function of the equipment.

No, I have no doubt the top lifters move into equipped, for
exactly the same reason I described above.

For better or worse, the top competition is equipped.

> He doesn't realize that many of the guys who can move
> the heaviest loads *never* lift in raw competitions.

No, Hoff realizes this quite well.

Hoff also realizes that the guys setting the records are
almost without question the guys getting the most out of their
equipment.

Are they strong, much stronger than I am? Of course.

Are they getting the maximum from their equipment, and in fact
gearing their training towards the equipment they use? Again,
without question.

Hoff

[Keith Hobm]

In article <irikkvoq5bs25t8ge8j59cuojbm2rn9a8u@4ax.com>, John
M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
> >In article <Bjr2b.257620$uu5.58958@sccrnsc04>, "Hoff"
> ><hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> wrote in message
> >> news:vkkfi31u0ou12b@corp.supernews.com...
> >> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > > "John M. Williams"
> >> > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > "John M. Williams"
> >> > > > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't
> >> > > > > > > > > really remember), did
> >> > Whit
> >> > > > use
> >> > > > > a
> >> > > > > > > > shirt
> >> > > > > > > > > to bench?
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Hoff
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > no.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > raw as a mf'er.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > well, i did use a belt.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Just wondering.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were
> >> > > > > > being a bitch.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Aww. It was just an innocent question...
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make
> >> > > > > comparisons, when
> >> one
> >> > is
> >> > > > > assisted and one isn't.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > You appear to be one of those who are convinced
> >> > > > that bench shirts contain hydraulic pistons.
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Not at all, John.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm sure it didn't add any lbs to your lifts
> >> > > whatsoever.
> >> >
> >> > Ten pounds max. It does improve the ability to pause,
> >> > but in the meets I've seen, I've noticed the judges
> >> > giving the benefit of the doubt to the raw weenies,
> >> > anyway. ;)
> >>
> >> Well, Sharon DID get a pretty iffy 2 whites last fall.
> >>
> >> I DO think enforcing the same pause on equipped vs raw is
> >> pretty ludicrous. I mean, most guys have to load a
> >> certain amount just to get the bar to *touch* with a
> >> shirt.
> >>
> >> Hell, the 45 lbs bar touches just fine when I bench.
> >
> >Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true of
> >John's shirt. It certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch
> >a 45 lb bar although i have to pull it a bit. In my case my
> >weak point is lockoout, not off the chest. So I might get
> >20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing my momentum and
> >getting through my sticking point. OTOH - I can put my
> >shirt on myself.
>
> That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
> effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the chest-arm
> design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a simple,
> single-ply Inzer like mine.
>
> http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
>
> Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)

I've used both. If it wasn't for the stretch back I wouldn't
use a bench shirt. No way I'm going through the shenanigans of
getting into even a relatively loose shirt without the stretch
back. Inzer also makes a stretch back product, BTW, if you
prefer them. I'm waiting for Metal to come out with a stretch
back and then I'll use them for everything. The squat suit is
very comfortable and effective, even relatively loose. If the
shirt was the same material I think its a winner. Has some
stretch to it, unlike the NXG which basically just stops you.
I'm confident of getting depth with the Metal product.

As far as keeping me honest - you've never seen me get into my
shirt. If you did you'd know what I meant by loose. I pull the
arms on and get the shirt on like you get into a pullover
sweater. I have a slightly smaller one that I haven't tried
yet that I may use for competition. But the Fury I've used so
far is very loose.

Gives me that extra little bit that gets me over 400. My best
raw bench has been 385 so far, while I've gotten 403 several
times now in competition.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[Hoff]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
news:khobman-2508031417480001@192.168.0.2...
> In article <jYt2b.256624$o%2.117462@sccrnsc02>, "Hoff"
> <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "Lisa" <fd4thawt@earthlink.zappspam.net> wrote in
> > message news:kFt2b.3295$3E.1160@newsread3.news.pas.eart-
> > hlink.net...
> > >
> > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote ...
> > > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > > > >
> > > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > > > >
> > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > > >snip
> > > > >
> > > > > the squat is low because i will refuse to do some
> > > > > candyass pl'er
style
> > > > > squat. i will do a real ol'er squat, and suffer the
> > > > > lower total
for
> > the
> > > > > sake of handsomeness and style.
> > >
> > > And they say wimmins will suffer for beauty. ;-p
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
> > > > Squat/Total.
You
> > can
> > > up
> > > > them next year; I think the AAU World Meet is heading
> > > > back to the
left
> > > coast
> > > > somewhere.
> > >
> > > He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After style,
> > > it's the
coming
> > out
> > > on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer. It's a mesomorphic
> > > behavioral
trait in
> > > him. <ducking>
> >
> > Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many*
> > classes, Mil/Law
being
> > only one of many. Add Lifetime, maybe an age group (dunno
> > how old), and trophies for everyone!
>
> Yeah, but that don't cut it. I suspect Whit is gonna agree
> on me here too. You want to compete against a level playing
> field, but within that playing field you want to compete
> with the best. So I prefer not to compete against guys who
> use steroids and I'd also prefer not to compete against guys
> using suits and gear, but it seems all the good lifters do.
>

Again, I was mostly joking. I think the AAU has way too many
classifications.

Whit may have changed his mind, but he apparently at least
entered into the
Mil/Law class.

> Within that - I don't want to be the best old man, or the
> best old man with a badge, or the best old man with a badge
> who is lifetime drug free. I want to be the best. I realize
> that this isn't going to happen at my age
> - but its what i want.
>
> I'm happy if I can keep improving and I'm hooked on the
> competitions themselves - the camraderie and social
> atmosphere and the primitive nature of the competition
> (betcha can't lift that!) - but I'd love to be the best.
> Even knowing it ain't gonna happen.
>

I don't mind entering master's classes, and obviously I enter
the raw class when available. That's pretty much the extent of
it, though.

Hoff

[John M. Wi]

"omegazero2004" <omegazero2004@aol.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:15:33 -0400, "John M. Williams"
> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>
> >"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote:
> >> John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true
> >> > >of John's
shirt.
> >It
> >> > >certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a 45 lb bar
> >> > >although i
have
> >to
> >> > >pull it a bit. In my case my weak point is lockoout,
> >> > >not off the
chest.
> >So
> >> > >I might get 20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing
> >> > >my momentum and getting through my sticking point.
> >> > >OTOH - I can put my shirt on
myself.
> >> >
> >> > That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
> >> > effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the
> >> > chest-arm design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a
> >> > simple, single-ply Inzer like mine.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
> >> >
> >> > Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)
> >>
> >> I've used both. If it wasn't for the stretch back I
> >> wouldn't use a
bench
> >> shirt. No way I'm going through the shenanigans of
> >> getting into even a relatively loose shirt without the
> >> stretch back. Inzer also makes a stretch back product,
> >> BTW, if you prefer them. I'm waiting for Metal to come
> >> out with a stretch back and then I'll use them for
> >> everything. The squat suit is very comfortable and
> >> effective, even relatively loose. If the shirt was the
> >> same material I think its a winner. Has some stretch
to
> >> it, unlike the NXG which basically just stops you. I'm
> >> confident of getting depth with the Metal product.
> >>
> >> As far as keeping me honest - you've never seen me get
> >> into my shirt.
If
> >> you did you'd know what I meant by loose. I pull the arms
> >> on and get
the
> >> shirt on like you get into a pullover sweater. I have a
> >> slightly
smaller
> >> one that I haven't tried yet that I may use for
> >> competition. But the
Fury
> >> I've used so far is very loose.
> >>
> >> Gives me that extra little bit that gets me over 400. My
> >> best raw bench has been 385 so far, while I've gotten 403
> >> several times now in competition.
> >
> >"Loose" is subjective, Keith. I have a simple Inzer Blast
> >shirt. I can pull the arms up to the shoulders by myself,
> >and it doesn't take very long to do it. Lots of people
> >would call that "loose." But it doesn't have a stretch
> >back, and I can't get it over my head and shoulders with
> >help. I don't think you can put on Inzer Blast shirt by
> >yourself, either.
> >
>
> my Blast fuckin shirt stops me lifting my big black dildoe,
> because of the limp restriction at the 25 degree angle of
> my fuckin silly little prick, while i am pulling momma's
> nightgown on. my lifts should be fucking cunting huge, but
> my butt kinda gets feelin real good with my finga stuck up
> there. should i take the fuckin Blast thing off and stick
> to the finger, or should i stick with the shirt and try
> usin ma thumb?

Hudson is having *way too much* fun with his new sockpuppet.

[John M. Wi]

"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "John M. Williams"
> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't really
> > > > > > > remember), did
Whit
> > use
> > > a
> > > > > > shirt
> > > > > > > to bench?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hoff
> > > > > >
> > > > > > no.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just wondering.
> > > >
> > > > No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were being a
> > > > bitch.
> > >
> > > Aww. It was just an innocent question...
> > >
> > > Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make
> > > comparisons, when one
is
> > > assisted and one isn't.
> >
> > You appear to be one of those who are convinced that bench
> > shirts contain hydraulic pistons.
> >
>
> Not at all, John.
>
> I'm sure it didn't add any lbs to your lifts whatsoever.

Ten pounds max. It does improve the ability to pause, but in
the meets I've seen, I've noticed the judges giving the
benefit of the doubt to the raw weenies, anyway. ;)

[John M. Wi]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote:
> John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote:
> > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > >
> > >Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true of
> > >John's shirt.
It
> > >certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a 45 lb bar
> > >although i have
to
> > >pull it a bit. In my case my weak point is lockoout, not
> > >off the chest.
So
> > >I might get 20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing my
> > >momentum and getting through my sticking point. OTOH - I
> > >can put my shirt on myself.
> >
> > That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
> > effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the chest-arm
> > design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a simple,
> > single-ply Inzer like mine.
> >
> > http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
> >
> > Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)
>
> I've used both. If it wasn't for the stretch back I wouldn't
> use a bench shirt. No way I'm going through the shenanigans
> of getting into even a relatively loose shirt without the
> stretch back. Inzer also makes a stretch back product, BTW,
> if you prefer them. I'm waiting for Metal to come out with a
> stretch back and then I'll use them for everything. The
> squat suit is very comfortable and effective, even
> relatively loose. If the shirt was the same material I think
> its a winner. Has some stretch to it, unlike the NXG which
> basically just stops you. I'm confident of getting depth
> with the Metal product.
>
> As far as keeping me honest - you've never seen me get into
> my shirt. If you did you'd know what I meant by loose. I
> pull the arms on and get the shirt on like you get into a
> pullover sweater. I have a slightly smaller one that I
> haven't tried yet that I may use for competition. But the
> Fury I've used so far is very loose.
>
> Gives me that extra little bit that gets me over 400. My
> best raw bench has been 385 so far, while I've gotten 403
> several times now in competition.

"Loose" is subjective, Keith. I have a simple Inzer Blast
shirt. I can pull the arms up to the shoulders by myself, and
it doesn't take very long to do it. Lots of people would call
that "loose." But it doesn't have a stretch back, and I can't
get it over my head and shoulders with help. I don't think you
can put on Inzer Blast shirt by yourself, either.

[Hoff]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:vkkfi31u0ou12b@corp.supernews.com...
> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote:
> > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > "John M. Williams"
> > > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't really
> > > > > > > > remember), did
> Whit
> > > use
> > > > a
> > > > > > > shirt
> > > > > > > > to bench?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hoff
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just wondering.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were being
> > > > > a bitch.
> > > >
> > > > Aww. It was just an innocent question...
> > > >
> > > > Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make
> > > > comparisons, when
one
> is
> > > > assisted and one isn't.
> > >
> > > You appear to be one of those who are convinced that
> > > bench shirts contain hydraulic pistons.
> > >
> >
> > Not at all, John.
> >
> > I'm sure it didn't add any lbs to your lifts whatsoever.
>
> Ten pounds max. It does improve the ability to pause, but in
> the meets I've seen, I've noticed the judges giving the
> benefit of the doubt to the raw weenies, anyway. ;)

Well, Sharon DID get a pretty iffy 2 whites last fall.

I DO think enforcing the same pause on equipped vs raw is
pretty ludicrous. I mean, most guys have to load a certain
amount just to get the bar to *touch* with a shirt.

Hell, the 45 lbs bar touches just fine when I bench.

Hoff

[Keith Hobm]

In article <vkl2k655gtj722@corp.supernews.com>, "John M.
Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

> "Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote:
> > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote:
> > > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true
> > > >of John's shirt.
> It
> > > >certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a 45 lb bar
> > > >although i have
> to
> > > >pull it a bit. In my case my weak point is lockoout,
> > > >not off the chest.
> So
> > > >I might get 20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing my
> > > >momentum and getting through my sticking point. OTOH -
> > > >I can put my shirt on myself.
> > >
> > > That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
> > > effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the
> > > chest-arm design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a
> > > simple, single-ply Inzer like mine.
> > >
> > > http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
> > >
> > > Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)
> >
> > I've used both. If it wasn't for the stretch back I
> > wouldn't use a bench shirt. No way I'm going through the
> > shenanigans of getting into even a relatively loose shirt
> > without the stretch back. Inzer also makes a stretch back
> > product, BTW, if you prefer them. I'm waiting for Metal to
> > come out with a stretch back and then I'll use them for
> > everything. The squat suit is very comfortable and
> > effective, even relatively loose. If the shirt was the
> > same material I think its a winner. Has some stretch to
> > it, unlike the NXG which basically just stops you. I'm
> > confident of getting depth with the Metal product.
> >
> > As far as keeping me honest - you've never seen me get
> > into my shirt. If you did you'd know what I meant by
> > loose. I pull the arms on and get the shirt on like you
> > get into a pullover sweater. I have a slightly smaller one
> > that I haven't tried yet that I may use for competition.
> > But the Fury I've used so far is very loose.
> >
> > Gives me that extra little bit that gets me over 400. My
> > best raw bench has been 385 so far, while I've gotten 403
> > several times now in competition.
>
> "Loose" is subjective, Keith. I have a simple Inzer Blast
> shirt. I can pull the arms up to the shoulders by myself,
> and it doesn't take very long to do it. Lots of people would
> call that "loose." But it doesn't have a stretch back, and I
> can't get it over my head and shoulders with help. I don't
> think you can put on Inzer Blast shirt by yourself, either.

Nope. But it does beg the question of why you feel it
necessary to 'keep me honest' about a subjective matter, since
you don't know how tight my Fury is on me.

:^)

Seriously, the stretch back shirts are a work of art as far as
comfort and convenience goes.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[Keith Hobm]

In article <Bjr2b.257620$uu5.58958@sccrnsc04>, "Hoff"
<hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote in message news:vkkfi31u0ou12b@corp.supernews.com...
> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > "John M. Williams"
> > > > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > > > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't really
> > > > > > > > > remember), did
> > Whit
> > > > use
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > shirt
> > > > > > > > > to bench?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hoff
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just wondering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You were
> > > > > > being a bitch.
> > > > >
> > > > > Aww. It was just an innocent question...
> > > > >
> > > > > Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make
> > > > > comparisons, when
> one
> > is
> > > > > assisted and one isn't.
> > > >
> > > > You appear to be one of those who are convinced that
> > > > bench shirts contain hydraulic pistons.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Not at all, John.
> > >
> > > I'm sure it didn't add any lbs to your lifts whatsoever.
> >
> > Ten pounds max. It does improve the ability to pause, but
> > in the meets I've seen, I've noticed the judges giving the
> > benefit of the doubt to the raw weenies, anyway. ;)
>
> Well, Sharon DID get a pretty iffy 2 whites last fall.
>
> I DO think enforcing the same pause on equipped vs raw is
> pretty ludicrous. I mean, most guys have to load a certain
> amount just to get the bar to *touch* with a shirt.
>
> Hell, the 45 lbs bar touches just fine when I bench.

Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true of
John's shirt. It certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a
45 lb bar although i have to pull it a bit. In my case my
weak point is lockoout, not off the chest. So I might get
20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing my momentum and
getting through my sticking point. OTOH - I can put my shirt
on myself. And also my lifting suits. I have to be careful
the straps don't fall down before I squat. So I really don't
wear that tight of gear.

Every time I try and go tighter the gear causes problems -
depth, blowouts, etc. So I'm resigned to not getting as much
as some, but staying comfortable. Personally i would like to
see gear banned, but that isn't going to happen.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[John M. Wi]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote:
> "John M. Williams"
> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > "Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote:
> > > John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be
> > > > >true of John's
shirt.
> > It
> > > > >certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a 45 lb
> > > > >bar although i
have
> > to
> > > > >pull it a bit. In my case my weak point is lockoout,
> > > > >not off the
chest.
> > So
> > > > >I might get 20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing
> > > > >my momentum
and
> > > > >getting through my sticking point. OTOH - I can put
> > > > >my shirt on
myself.
> > > >
> > > > That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
> > > > effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the
> > > > chest-arm design of the Titan is
even
> > > > "tighter" than a simple, single-ply Inzer like mine.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
> > > >
> > > > Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)
> > >
> > > I've used both. If it wasn't for the stretch back I
> > > wouldn't use a
bench
> > > shirt. No way I'm going through the shenanigans of
> > > getting into even a relatively loose shirt without the
> > > stretch back. Inzer also makes a stretch back product,
> > > BTW, if you prefer them. I'm waiting for Metal
to
> > > come out with a stretch back and then I'll use them for
> > > everything.
The
> > > squat suit is very comfortable and effective, even
> > > relatively loose.
If
> > > the shirt was the same material I think its a winner.
> > > Has some stretch
to
> > > it, unlike the NXG which basically just stops you. I'm
> > > confident of getting depth with the Metal product.
> > >
> > > As far as keeping me honest - you've never seen me get
> > > into my shirt.
If
> > > you did you'd know what I meant by loose. I pull the
> > > arms on and get
the
> > > shirt on like you get into a pullover sweater. I have a
> > > slightly
smaller
> > > one that I haven't tried yet that I may use for
> > > competition. But the
Fury
> > > I've used so far is very loose.
> > >
> > > Gives me that extra little bit that gets me over 400. My
> > > best raw
bench
> > > has been 385 so far, while I've gotten 403 several times
> > > now in competition.
> >
> > "Loose" is subjective, Keith. I have a simple Inzer Blast
> > shirt. I can pull the arms up to the shoulders by myself,
> > and it doesn't take very long to do it. Lots of people
> > would call that "loose." But it doesn't have a stretch
> > back, and I can't get it over my head and shoulders with
> > help. I don't think you can put on Inzer Blast shirt by
> > yourself, either.
>
> Nope. But it does beg the question of why you feel it
> necessary to 'keep me honest' about a subjective matter,
> since you don't know how tight my Fury is on me.

I was making the point for Hoff. You said you didn't know how
tight mine is, either. Given some of Hoff's presumptions about
bench shirts (which he has since clarified), I just wanted to
make sure you weren't implying that "everyone else" wears
death-grip shirts while you're wearing the floppy old sweater
that your mom knit for you.

And, yes, I know some guys do wear ultra-tight shirts; I have
helped as part of a "team" to pull those shirts on, half an
inch at time. I'm not willing to wear something like that, no
matter how many pounds it gives me.

> Seriously, the stretch back shirts are a work of art as far
> as comfort and convenience goes.

I plan to get one ... if I go back to using one. At this
point, mine has caused me more problems than I think it's
worth. Given my raw lifts in the gym, it's not offering more
than ten pounds advantage under the best of circumstances, and
it has actually proved to be a hindrance under some
circumstances.

[Hoff]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
news:khobman-2508031115240001@192.168.0.2... <snip>

> > Well, Sharon DID get a pretty iffy 2 whites last fall.
> >
> > I DO think enforcing the same pause on equipped vs raw is
> > pretty
ludicrous.
> > I mean, most guys have to load a certain amount just to
> > get the bar to *touch* with a shirt.
> >
> > Hell, the 45 lbs bar touches just fine when I bench.
>
> Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true of
> John's shirt. It certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch
> a 45 lb bar although i have to pull it a bit. In my case my
> weak point is lockoout, not off the chest. So I might get
> 20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing my momentum and
> getting through my sticking point. OTOH - I can put my shirt
> on myself. And also my lifting suits. I have to be careful
> the straps don't fall down before I squat. So I really don't
> wear that tight of gear.

I was really just joking about the pause.

I did see some woman in April take what seemed like 10
seconds to get the bar down, then pause and blow it up.
They'd have been pulling the bar off me if I took that long
getting it down.

>
> Every time I try and go tighter the gear causes problems -
> depth, blowouts, etc. So I'm resigned to not getting as much
> as some, but staying comfortable. Personally i would like to
> see gear banned, but that isn't going to happen.

Probably not.

Though I think this whole Olympic push that is happening with
RDC and the AAU may make things interesting.

Hoff

[John Hudso]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:30:59 -0400, "John M. Williams"
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

>"omegazero2004" <omegazero2004@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:15:33 -0400, "John M. Williams"
>> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>>
<snip>

>> >
>> >"Loose" is subjective, Keith. I have a simple Inzer Blast
>> >shirt. I can pull the arms up to the shoulders by myself,
>> >and it doesn't take very long to do it. Lots of people
>> >would call that "loose." But it doesn't have a stretch
>> >back, and I can't get it over my head and shoulders with
>> >help. I don't think you can put on Inzer Blast shirt by
>> >yourself, either.
>> >
>>
>> my Blast fuckin shirt stops me lifting my big black dildoe,
>> because of the limp restriction at the 25 degree angle of
>> my fuckin silly little prick, while i am pulling momma's
>> nightgown on. my lifts should be fucking cunting huge, but
>> my butt kinda gets feelin real good with my finga stuck up
>> there. should i take the fuckin Blast thing off and stick
>> to the finger, or should i stick with the shirt and try
>> usin ma thumb?
>
>Hudson is having *way too much* fun with his new sockpuppet.

All I need now John, is to know what a "sockpuppet" is so that
I may know just how much "fun" I am having?

[Omegazero2]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:30:59 -0400, "John M. Williams"
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

>"omegazero2004" <omegazero2004@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:15:33 -0400, "John M. Williams"
>> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>>
>> >"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote:
>> >> John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be
>> >> > >true of John's
>shirt.
>> >It
>> >> > >certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a 45 lb
>> >> > >bar although i
>have
>> >to
>> >> > >pull it a bit. In my case my weak point is lockoout,
>> >> > >not off the
>chest.
>> >So
>> >> > >I might get 20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing
>> >> > >my momentum and getting through my sticking point.
>> >> > >OTOH - I can put my shirt on
>myself.
>> >> >
>> >> > That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
>> >> > effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the
>> >> > chest-arm design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a
>> >> > simple, single-ply Inzer like mine.
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
>> >> >
>> >> > Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)
>> >>
>> >> I've used both. If it wasn't for the stretch back I
>> >> wouldn't use a
>bench
>> >> shirt. No way I'm going through the shenanigans of
>> >> getting into even a relatively loose shirt without the
>> >> stretch back. Inzer also makes a stretch back product,
>> >> BTW, if you prefer them. I'm waiting for Metal to come
>> >> out with a stretch back and then I'll use them for
>> >> everything. The squat suit is very comfortable and
>> >> effective, even relatively loose. If the shirt was the
>> >> same material I think its a winner. Has some stretch
>to
>> >> it, unlike the NXG which basically just stops you. I'm
>> >> confident of getting depth with the Metal product.
>> >>
>> >> As far as keeping me honest - you've never seen me get
>> >> into my shirt.
>If
>> >> you did you'd know what I meant by loose. I pull the
>> >> arms on and get
>the
>> >> shirt on like you get into a pullover sweater. I have a
>> >> slightly
>smaller
>> >> one that I haven't tried yet that I may use for
>> >> competition. But the
>Fury
>> >> I've used so far is very loose.
>> >>
>> >> Gives me that extra little bit that gets me over 400. My
>> >> best raw bench has been 385 so far, while I've gotten
>> >> 403 several times now in competition.
>> >
>> >"Loose" is subjective, Keith. I have a simple Inzer Blast
>> >shirt. I can pull the arms up to the shoulders by myself,
>> >and it doesn't take very long to do it. Lots of people
>> >would call that "loose." But it doesn't have a stretch
>> >back, and I can't get it over my head and shoulders with
>> >help. I don't think you can put on Inzer Blast shirt by
>> >yourself, either.
>> >
>>
>> my Blast fuckin shirt stops me lifting my big black dildoe,
>> because of the limp restriction at the 25 degree angle of
>> my fuckin silly little prick, while i am pulling momma's
>> nightgown on. my lifts should be fucking cunting huge, but
>> my butt kinda gets feelin real good with my finga stuck up
>> there. should i take the fuckin Blast thing off and stick
>> to the finger, or should i stick with the shirt and try
>> usin ma thumb?
>
>Hudson is having *way too much* fun with his new sockpuppet.

its nigh on time some good ol boy got stuck up the ass of thet
little shithead sockpuppet of yours.

>

x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com x-- 3,500+
Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups x-- Access to
over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD

[Will]

In article <bid7uk$7lg6e$1@ID-156790.news.uni-berlin.de>, Kirk
Roy <kirk@mail.vei.net> wrote:

> Will <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
> > Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue
> > powerlifting. Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
> >
> > First off, I am crappy at weight management. I get
> > paranoid and overdo the weight cutting measures the week
> > before a meet...although I think the scale I rely on at
> > home may be weighing a little heavy as well. Whatever
> > the exact reasons, I competed in the 220 lb class
> > weighing in at...
> >
> > 211. (At a hair over 6 feet tall)
> >
> > Yikes! I was in the mid 220s at the start of the month.
> > That shook me up a bit. And while it's no excuse, my coach
> > bailed on me at the last minute.
>
> I want what you got. I could lift in the 165s! :)

Yeah, there are drawbacks to dropping almost 20 lbs in 3 weeks
though, even if it's mostly water.

<snip>

> Sounds like you're learning. After you've applied the things
> you've learned so far you'll be kicking it up quite a bit.
>
> Good job!

Thanks. Yeah, I think I'll do a lot better if I:

1) manage my bodyweight more intelligently

2) only use gear I've worked out in enough to know its groove
(although maybe I'd have done better in the bench throwing
caution to the wind and using my brand new shirt, which at
least fits tight)

3) save the PR's for my third attempts

[Omegazero2]

"John HUDSON" <parlous@ukf.net> wrote in message
news:fi7lkv81iq45pbgr6qn0kgdafd78k53iek@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:30:59 -0400, "John M. Williams"
> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>
> >"omegazero2004" <omegazero2004@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:15:33 -0400, "John M. Williams"
> >> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >>
> <snip>
>
> >> >
> >> >"Loose" is subjective, Keith. I have a simple Inzer
> >> >Blast shirt. I can pull the arms up to the shoulders by
> >> >myself, and it doesn't take very long to do it. Lots of
> >> >people would call that "loose." But it doesn't have a
> >> >stretch back, and I can't get it over my head and
> >> >shoulders with help. I don't think you can put on Inzer
> >> >Blast shirt by yourself, either.
> >> >
> >>
> >> my Blast fuckin shirt stops me lifting my big black
> >> dildoe, because of the limp restriction at the 25 degree
> >> angle of my fuckin silly little prick, while i am pulling
> >> momma's nightgown on. my lifts should be fucking cunting
> >> huge, but my butt kinda gets feelin real good with my
> >> finga stuck up there. should i take the fuckin Blast
> >> thing off and stick to the finger, or should i stick with
> >> the shirt and try usin ma thumb?
> >
> >Hudson is having *way too much* fun with his new
> >sockpuppet.
>
> All I need now John, is to know what a "sockpuppet" is so
> that I may know just how much "fun" I am having?

AS dumb as you are, you would have fun knowing who you are.

>

[Omegazero2]

"omegazero2004" <omegazero2004@aol.com> wrote in message
news:nm3lkvkviludtplobt4k9pbvkdapcrpbjp@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:15:33 -0400, "John M. Williams"
> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>
> >"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote:
> >> John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true
> >> > >of John's
shirt.
> >It
> >> > >certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a 45 lb bar
> >> > >although i
have
> >to
> >> > >pull it a bit. In my case my weak point is lockoout,
> >> > >not off the
chest.
> >So
> >> > >I might get 20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing
> >> > >my momentum and getting through my sticking point.
> >> > >OTOH - I can put my shirt on
myself.
> >> >
> >> > That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
> >> > effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the
> >> > chest-arm design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a
> >> > simple, single-ply Inzer like mine.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
> >> >
> >> > Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)
> >>
> >> I've used both. If it wasn't for the stretch back I
> >> wouldn't use a
bench
> >> shirt. No way I'm going through the shenanigans of
> >> getting into even a relatively loose shirt without the
> >> stretch back. Inzer also makes a stretch back product,
> >> BTW, if you prefer them. I'm waiting for Metal to come
> >> out with a stretch back and then I'll use them for
> >> everything. The squat suit is very comfortable and
> >> effective, even relatively loose. If the shirt was the
> >> same material I think its a winner. Has some stretch
to
> >> it, unlike the NXG which basically just stops you. I'm
> >> confident of getting depth with the Metal product.
> >>
> >> As far as keeping me honest - you've never seen me get
> >> into my shirt.
If
> >> you did you'd know what I meant by loose. I pull the arms
> >> on and get
the
> >> shirt on like you get into a pullover sweater. I have a
> >> slightly
smaller
> >> one that I haven't tried yet that I may use for
> >> competition. But the
Fury
> >> I've used so far is very loose.
> >>
> >> Gives me that extra little bit that gets me over 400. My
> >> best raw bench has been 385 so far, while I've gotten 403
> >> several times now in competition.
> >
> >"Loose" is subjective, Keith. I have a simple Inzer Blast
> >shirt. I can pull the arms up to the shoulders by myself,
> >and it doesn't take very long to do it. Lots of people
> >would call that "loose." But it doesn't have a stretch
> >back, and I can't get it over my head and shoulders with
> >help. I don't think you can put on Inzer Blast shirt by
> >yourself, either.
> >
>
> my Blast fuckin shirt stops me lifting my big black dildoe,
> because of the limp restriction at the 25 degree angle of
> my fuckin silly little prick, while i am pulling momma's
> nightgown on. my lifts should be fucking cunting huge, but
> my butt kinda gets feelin real good with my finga stuck up
> there. should i take the fuckin Blast thing off and stick
> to the finger, or should i stick with the shirt and try
> usin ma thumb?

Gooba Jobba Jeeba.

>
>
>
>
> x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com x-- 3,500+
> Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups x-- Access
> to over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD

[Danl]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message >
> That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
> effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the chest-arm
> design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a simple,
> single-ply Inzer like mine.
>
> http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
>
> Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)
>
I have the Fury shirt too. I can barely get 315 to touch and
thats pulling it down to my chest. Its a killer shirt.

Dan

[Aaron]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
news:khobman-2508031254410001@192.168.0.2...
> In article
> <irikkvoq5bs25t8ge8j59cuojbm2rn9a8u@4ax.com>, John M.
> Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>
> > khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >
> > >In article <Bjr2b.257620$uu5.58958@sccrnsc04>, "Hoff"
> > ><hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> "John M. Williams"
> > >> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote in
message
> > >> news:vkkfi31u0ou12b@corp.supernews.com...
> > >> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> > > "John M. Williams"
> > >> > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > >> > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> > > > > "John M. Williams"
> > >> > > > > <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
wrote:
> > >> > > > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > And just for the record (cuz I don't
> > >> > > > > > > > > really
remember), did
> > >> > Whit
> > >> > > > use
> > >> > > > > a
> > >> > > > > > > > shirt
> > >> > > > > > > > > to bench?
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Hoff
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > no.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Just wondering.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > No, you weren't. You knew the answer. You
> > >> > > > > > were being a bitch.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Aww. It was just an innocent question...
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Honestly, though, it doesn't make sense to make
> > >> > > > > comparisons,
when
> > >> one
> > >> > is
> > >> > > > > assisted and one isn't.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > You appear to be one of those who are convinced
> > >> > > > that bench shirts contain hydraulic pistons.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Not at all, John.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'm sure it didn't add any lbs to your lifts
> > >> > > whatsoever.
> > >> >
> > >> > Ten pounds max. It does improve the ability to pause,
> > >> > but in the meets I've seen, I've noticed the judges
> > >> > giving the benefit of the doubt to the raw weenies,
> > >> > anyway. ;)
> > >>
> > >> Well, Sharon DID get a pretty iffy 2 whites last fall.
> > >>
> > >> I DO think enforcing the same pause on equipped vs raw
> > >> is pretty
ludicrous.
> > >> I mean, most guys have to load a certain amount just to
> > >> get the bar
to
> > >> *touch* with a shirt.
> > >>
> > >> Hell, the 45 lbs bar touches just fine when I bench.
> > >
> > >Depends on the shirt. I don't think that would be true of
> > >John's shirt.
It
> > >certainly isn't true of mine - I can touch a 45 lb bar
> > >although i have
to
> > >pull it a bit. In my case my weak point is lockoout, not
> > >off the chest.
So
> > >I might get 20-30 out of my shirt just by increasing my
> > >momentum and getting through my sticking point. OTOH - I
> > >can put my shirt on myself.
> >
> > That's because you have a stretch-back Titan which
> > effectively beats the no-open-back rule. Yet the chest-arm
> > design of the Titan is even "tighter" than a simple,
> > single-ply Inzer like mine.
> >
> > http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
> >
> > Just keeping you honest, Keith. ;)
>
> I've used both. If it wasn't for the stretch back I wouldn't
> use a bench shirt. No way I'm going through the shenanigans
> of getting into even a relatively loose shirt without the
> stretch back. Inzer also makes a stretch back product, BTW,
> if you prefer them. I'm waiting for Metal to come out with a
> stretch back and then I'll use them for everything. The
> squat suit is very comfortable and effective, even
> relatively loose. If the shirt was the same material I think
> its a winner. Has some stretch to it, unlike the NXG which
> basically just stops you. I'm confident of getting depth
> with the Metal product.
>
> As far as keeping me honest - you've never seen me get into
> my shirt. If you did you'd know what I meant by loose. I
> pull the arms on and get the shirt on like you get into a
> pullover sweater. I have a slightly smaller one that I
> haven't tried yet that I may use for competition. But the
> Fury I've used so far is very loose.
>
> Gives me that extra little bit that gets me over 400. My
> best raw bench has been 385 so far, while I've gotten 403
> several times now in competition.

pussies, the whole lotta ya :)~

I have benched raw 413 in the gym, but have gotten only 396 in
competition with gear....but that was mainly due to a bullshit
injury. This october 11th will be a different story

I never really got much outta my shirts. Helped with the pause
maybe, hurt like fuck-definately but increase my bench, nah.
but I only have a tight as fuck single ply Blast, whcih is the
cheapest of the cheap

--
Aaron

[Will]

In article <khobman-2308032241480001@192.168.1.101>,
khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

> In article
> <satterwill-1AA825.21245323082003@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
> <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
> >
> > No doubt, the real killer is the weight loss. But I wonder
> > if the combination of weight loss and relative disuse of
> > my muscles results in a bigger loss than I would get from
> > the weight loss alone...wonder if I need more of a
> > "muscle-sparing" routine.
>
> I don't think its an issue of muscle wasting away. When you
> lose weight like that its water. The combination of water
> loss and nerves could impair motor unit recruitment or at
> least the timing of it. And your neural inputs are relaxed
> during the last two weeks, which is why I like the speed
> work and plyos to maximize neural inputs.

One other thing I've thought of that might be screwing me up.
I make an all out, balls-to-the-wall effort on my opener to
make sure I get the damn thing lifted and I can stay in the
meet. I wonder if I need to take a more relaxed approach to my
openers though. It's almost like I'm doing speed work, the bar
flies up so fast and I'm working on accelerating it the whole
way through...and that probably takes more out of me than a
nice controlled ascent. Any thoughts on that?

[Keith Hobm]

In article
<satterwill-FA180D.10015926082003@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
<satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:

> In article <khobman-2308032241480001@192.168.1.101>,
> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <satterwill-1AA825.21245323082003@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
> > <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > No doubt, the real killer is the weight loss. But I
> > > wonder if the combination of weight loss and relative
> > > disuse of my muscles results in a bigger loss than I
> > > would get from the weight loss alone...wonder if I need
> > > more of a "muscle-sparing" routine.
> >
> > I don't think its an issue of muscle wasting away. When
> > you lose weight like that its water. The combination of
> > water loss and nerves could impair motor unit recruitment
> > or at least the timing of it. And your neural inputs are
> > relaxed during the last two weeks, which is why I like the
> > speed work and plyos to maximize neural inputs.
>
> One other thing I've thought of that might be screwing me
> up. I make an all out, balls-to-the-wall effort on my opener
> to make sure I get the damn thing lifted and I can stay in
> the meet. I wonder if I need to take a more relaxed approach
> to my openers though. It's almost like I'm doing speed work,
> the bar flies up so fast and I'm working on accelerating it
> the whole way through...and that probably takes more out of
> me than a nice controlled ascent. Any thoughts on that?

Don't think it matters much. You should be good for several
efforts and be able to recover fully between efforts.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[Danl]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message >
> If the lifter is too fat to chin his/her own body weight,
> he/she bombs. Fuck 'em.
>
> Maybe then the big-legged fat boys will have to start
> lifting in single-lift competitions. ;)

You'd be surprised how many of those big legged fat guys can
do some chins. Lat strength is important for bench as well as
deadlifts. Guys who are pulling a lot of weight usually have
some strong lats.

[John M . W]

"DanL" <dan88z@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>wrote in message >
>> In many, perhaps the majority, but not "almost every
>> sport." I don't really enjoy many of the traditional team
>> sports. I do like boxing, though. And the rule doesn't
>> apply there.
>>
>
>A lot of a punch's power comes from the hips and legs. Just
>like hitting a baseball or throwing a pitch or throwing a
>shot or discus. It's a full body movement.

It's still mostly arms, shoulders, and chest, particularly for
the jabs, which are most frequently thrown. It's not the
boxer's hips and legs which are most worn out in the later
rounds. Nor do you see many boxers with huge legs, even in the
heavyweights.

Yes, you can always argue that other bodyparts contribute,
but for that matter, sprinters use a lot of upper body
movement, too.

[Danl]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message >
> In many, perhaps the majority, but not "almost every sport."
> I don't really enjoy many of the traditional team sports. I
> do like boxing, though. And the rule doesn't apply there.
>

A lot of a punch's power comes from the hips and legs. Just
like hitting a baseball or throwing a pitch or throwing a shot
or discus. It's a full body movement.

[Danl]

"Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
news:3f4b2895@clear.net.nz...
> I never really got much outta my shirts. Helped with the
> pause maybe,
hurt
> like fuck-definately but increase my bench, nah. but I only
> have a tight
as
> fuck single ply Blast, whcih is the cheapest of the cheap
>
> --
Thats why you never got anything out of your shirt- the basic
blast is a piece of crap. Good for training but not much else.
My 1st shirt was an HD blast. If it gave me 5 lbs I'd be
surprised. The thing it did do was allow more control on the
lowering of the bar and on the pause, as you said.

If you have a 400 raw bench, a properly fitted fury shirt
would give you a 450 bench easily.

Dan

[Keith Hobm]

In article <fMKdnXC5ccEKAtaiXTWJhg@comcast.com>, "DanL"
<dan88z@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
> news:3f4b2895@clear.net.nz...
> > I never really got much outta my shirts. Helped with the
> > pause maybe,
> hurt
> > like fuck-definately but increase my bench, nah. but I
> > only have a tight
> as
> > fuck single ply Blast, whcih is the cheapest of the cheap
> >
> > --
> Thats why you never got anything out of your shirt- the
> basic blast is a piece of crap. Good for training but not
> much else. My 1st shirt was an HD blast. If it gave me 5 lbs
> I'd be surprised. The thing it did do was allow more control
> on the lowering of the bar and on the pause, as you said.
>
> If you have a 400 raw bench, a properly fitted fury shirt
> would give you a 450 bench easily.
>

Doesn't for me. Adds a most 20-30, mainly because my weak
point is lockout.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[Will]

In article <khobman-2608031342430001@192.168.0.2>,
khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

> In article <fMKdnXC5ccEKAtaiXTWJhg@comcast.com>, "DanL"
> <dan88z@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
> > news:3f4b2895@clear.net.nz...
> > > I never really got much outta my shirts. Helped with the
> > > pause maybe,
> > hurt
> > > like fuck-definately but increase my bench, nah. but I
> > > only have a tight
> > as
> > > fuck single ply Blast, whcih is the cheapest of the
> > > cheap
> > >
> > > --
> > Thats why you never got anything out of your shirt- the
> > basic blast is a piece of crap. Good for training but not
> > much else. My 1st shirt was an HD blast. If it gave me 5
> > lbs I'd be surprised. The thing it did do was allow more
> > control on the lowering of the bar and on the pause, as
> > you said.
> >
> > If you have a 400 raw bench, a properly fitted fury shirt
> > would give you a 450 bench easily.
> >
>
> Doesn't for me. Adds a most 20-30, mainly because my weak
> point is lockout.

I bet most people would argue you Fury is too loose, and hence
not "properly fitted". But I hear you on the weak point being
lockout and getting less out of a shirt.

[Danl]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
news:khobman-2608031342430001@192.168.0.2...
>
> Doesn't for me. Adds a most 20-30, mainly because my weak
> point is
lockout.
>
Then work your lockout harder!

Did you say you can touch the empty bar to your chest with
your Fury? If so, it's way loose. I can barely row 315 down
with mine, and I know other guys who can't get 400+ to touch.
I'm not looking for that out of my shirt because I can't
lockout more than 425 or so. The fit mine has that lets 315
touch works well. I can triple upt oabout 345 with it and then
do singles from there to practice with it. I found that
whatever I can 3 board raw, I can full bench in my shirt.

[Keith Hobm]

In article
<satterwill-45C004.13391726082003@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
<satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:

> In article <khobman-2608031342430001@192.168.0.2>,
> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
> > In article <fMKdnXC5ccEKAtaiXTWJhg@comcast.com>, "DanL"
> > <dan88z@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
> > > news:3f4b2895@clear.net.nz...
> > > > I never really got much outta my shirts. Helped with
> > > > the pause maybe,
> > > hurt
> > > > like fuck-definately but increase my bench, nah. but I
> > > > only have
a tight
> > > as
> > > > fuck single ply Blast, whcih is the cheapest of the
> > > > cheap
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > Thats why you never got anything out of your shirt- the
> > > basic blast is a piece of crap. Good for training but
> > > not much else. My 1st shirt was an HD blast. If it gave
> > > me 5 lbs I'd be surprised. The thing it did do was allow
> > > more control on the lowering of the bar and on the
> > > pause, as you said.
> > >
> > > If you have a 400 raw bench, a properly fitted fury
> > > shirt would give you a 450 bench easily.
> > >
> >
> > Doesn't for me. Adds a most 20-30, mainly because my weak
> > point is lockout.
>
> I bet most people would argue you Fury is too loose, and
> hence not "properly fitted". But I hear you on the weak
> point being lockout and getting less out of a shirt.

Could be. I have a tighter one I haven't tried out yet, that I
will try on Friday and see what I can triple in. The Canadian
Drug Free PL is having a National meet on October 18th that is
only a 5 hour drive away, so I'm going to go and do it as a
tune-up for my November CPU meet. So I can try it in
competition then.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[Keith Hobm]

In article <oUqdncxfvrp2VNaiXTWJkw@comcast.com>, "DanL"
<dan88z@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
> news:khobman-2608031342430001@192.168.0.2...
> >
> > Doesn't for me. Adds a most 20-30, mainly because my weak
> > point is
> lockout.
> >
> Then work your lockout harder!
>
> Did you say you can touch the empty bar to your chest with
> your Fury? If so, it's way loose. I can barely row 315 down
> with mine, and I know other guys who can't get 400+ to
> touch. I'm not looking for that out of my shirt because I
> can't lockout more than 425 or so. The fit mine has that
> lets 315 touch works well. I can triple upt oabout 345 with
> it and then do singles from there to practice with it. I
> found that whatever I can 3 board raw, I can full bench in
> my shirt.

Yeah, but my weakness is at lockout, so I don't see much point
in a supertight shirt.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[Whit]

"Lisa" <fd4thawt@earthlink.zappspam.net> wrote in message
news:kFt2b.3295$3E.1160@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote ...
> > > raw as a mf'er.
> > >
> > > well, i did use a belt.
> > >
> > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> >snip
> > >
> > > the squat is low because i will refuse to do some
> > > candyass pl'er style squat. i will do a real ol'er
> > > squat, and suffer the lower total for
the
> > > sake of handsomeness and style.
>
> And they say wimmins will suffer for beauty. ;-p
>
> >
> > Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
> > Squat/Total.

that's pretty frigging sad.

You can
> up
> > them next year; I think the AAU World Meet is heading back
> > to the left
> coast
> > somewhere.
>
> He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After style, it's
> the coming
out
> on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer. It's a mesomorphic
> behavioral trait in him. <ducking>

well, i would rather be first and ugly than last place and
pretty. but the former is an impossibility ;)

but i'd prefer first and pretty.

whit

> ---
> Lisa tho' that whole 'left coast' thang sounds promising

[Whit]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
news:khobman-2508031417480001@192.168.0.2...
> In article <jYt2b.256624$o%2.117462@sccrnsc02>, "Hoff"
> <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "Lisa" <fd4thawt@earthlink.zappspam.net> wrote in
> > message news:kFt2b.3295$3E.1160@newsread3.news.pas.eart-
> > hlink.net...
> > >
> > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote ...
> > > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > > > >
> > > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > > > >
> > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > > >snip
> > > > >
> > > > > the squat is low because i will refuse to do some
> > > > > candyass pl'er
style
> > > > > squat. i will do a real ol'er squat, and suffer the
> > > > > lower total
for
> > the
> > > > > sake of handsomeness and style.
> > >
> > > And they say wimmins will suffer for beauty. ;-p
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
> > > > Squat/Total.
You
> > can
> > > up
> > > > them next year; I think the AAU World Meet is heading
> > > > back to the
left
> > > coast
> > > > somewhere.
> > >
> > > He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After style,
> > > it's the
coming
> > out
> > > on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer. It's a mesomorphic
> > > behavioral
trait in
> > > him. <ducking>
> >
> > Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many*
> > classes, Mil/Law
being
> > only one of many. Add Lifetime, maybe an age group (dunno
> > how old), and trophies for everyone!
>
> Yeah, but that don't cut it. I suspect Whit is gonna agree
> on me here too. You want to compete against a level playing
> field, but within that playing field you want to compete
> with the best. So I prefer not to compete against guys who
> use steroids and I'd also prefer not to compete against guys
> using suits and gear, but it seems all the good lifters do.
>
> Within that - I don't want to be the best old man, or the
> best old man with a badge, or the best old man with a badge
> who is lifetime drug free. I want to be the best. I realize
> that this isn't going to happen at my age
> - but its what i want.
>

i agree. although i do like things like police olympics and
such.

because they attract a better class of person, and a better
looking woman, too. :)

whit

> I'm happy if I can keep improving and I'm hooked on the
> competitions themselves - the camraderie and social
> atmosphere and the primitive nature of the competition
> (betcha can't lift that!) - but I'd love to be the best.
> Even knowing it ain't gonna happen.
>
> --
> Keith Hobman
>
> --- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

[Whit]

"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aku2b.258085$Ho3.33983@sccrnsc03...
> "Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
> news:khobman-2508031417480001@192.168.0.2...
> > In article <jYt2b.256624$o%2.117462@sccrnsc02>, "Hoff"
> > <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Lisa" <fd4thawt@earthlink.zappspam.net> wrote in
> > > message news:kFt2b.3295$3E.1160@newsread3.news.pas.eart-
> > > hlink.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > > > > "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote ...
> > > > > > raw as a mf'er.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > well, i did use a belt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but that is considered 'raw' in the aau.
> > > > >snip
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the squat is low because i will refuse to do some
> > > > > > candyass pl'er
> style
> > > > > > squat. i will do a real ol'er squat, and suffer
> > > > > > the lower total
> for
> > > the
> > > > > > sake of handsomeness and style.
> > > >
> > > > And they say wimmins will suffer for beauty. ;-p
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
> > > > > Squat/Total.
> You
> > > can
> > > > up
> > > > > them next year; I think the AAU World Meet is
> > > > > heading back to the
> left
> > > > coast
> > > > > somewhere.
> > > >
> > > > He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After
> > > > style, it's the
> coming
> > > out
> > > > on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer. It's a mesomorphic
> > > > behavioral
> trait in
> > > > him. <ducking>
> > >
> > > Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many*
> > > classes, Mil/Law
> being
> > > only one of many. Add Lifetime, maybe an age group
> > > (dunno how old),
and
> > > trophies for everyone!
> >
> > Yeah, but that don't cut it. I suspect Whit is gonna agree
> > on me here
too.
> > You want to compete against a level playing field, but
> > within that
playing
> > field you want to compete with the best. So I prefer not
> > to compete against guys who use steroids and I'd also
> > prefer not to compete against guys using suits and gear,
> > but it seems all the good lifters do.
> >
>
> Again, I was mostly joking. I think the AAU has way too many
> classifications.
>
> Whit may have changed his mind, but he apparently at least
> entered into
the
> Mil/Law class.
>

i'd still enter that class.

> > Within that - I don't want to be the best old man, or the
> > best old man with a badge, or the best old man with a
> > badge who is lifetime drug
free.
> > I want to be the best. I realize that this isn't going to
> > happen at my
age
> > - but its what i want.
> >
> > I'm happy if I can keep improving and I'm hooked on the
> > competitions themselves - the camraderie and social
> > atmosphere and the primitive
nature
> > of the competition (betcha can't lift that!) - but I'd
> > love to be the best. Even knowing it ain't gonna happen.
> >
>
> I don't mind entering master's classes, and obviously I
> enter the raw
class
> when available. That's pretty much the extent of it, though.
>

if they have a class for more evolved people, like military
and law enforcement, i'll enter. all part of the game

whit

> Hoff

[Aaron]

"DanL" <dan88z@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fMKdnXC5ccEKAtaiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
>
> "Aaron" <hunt354 at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
> news:3f4b2895@clear.net.nz...
> > I never really got much outta my shirts. Helped with the
> > pause maybe,
> hurt
> > like fuck-definately but increase my bench, nah. but I
> > only have a
tight
> as
> > fuck single ply Blast, whcih is the cheapest of the cheap
> >
> > --
> Thats why you never got anything out of your shirt- the
> basic blast is a piece of crap. Good for training but not
> much else. My 1st shirt was an HD blast. If it gave me 5 lbs
> I'd be surprised. The thing it did do was allow more control
> on the lowering of the bar and on the pause, as you said.
>
> If you have a 400 raw bench, a properly fitted fury shirt
> would give you a 450 bench easily.
>
> Dan

I gave up bothering getting a shirt, becuase by the time Titan
make the fuker (3months) and the time it makes it to the
fucking antartic (well NZ anyway) (they rekon a number of
weeks, Fucke if I know why, considering I can get somethings
overnight from the states) its not worth it. And I could just
buy an Inzer, direct from their new webpage, but that has the
problem of costing a fookin arm and leg as well (I can buy
20odd kg of steak for a similar price). I would rather spend
the money on my kids than give it to some yankee bastards :)
My brother works about 10min away from the metal gear site in
finland, but they cost more than a fooking titan nad inzer put
together (well,, almost)

--
Aaron

[John M . W]

"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"Lisa" <fd4thawt@earthlink.zappspam.net> wrote ...
>>
>> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
>> >
>> > Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
>> > Squat/Total. You can up them next year; I think the AAU
>> > World Meet is heading back to the left coast somewhere.
>>
>> He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After style,
>> it's the coming out on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer.
>> It's a mesomorphic behavioral trait in him. <ducking>
>
>Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many* classes,
>Mil/Law being only one of many. Add Lifetime, maybe an age
>group (dunno how old), and trophies for everyone!

That comment made me wonder, so just for kicks and giggles, I
checked the AAU American Records page. Whit's records is,
indeed, still in place. But does the AAU have a pretty limited
association? Right next to Whit's squat is the AAU American
record for Mil/Law Raw bench press: 303. Shit! I've done a raw
305 in the gym a couple of times, and that looks like it's the
Open record! If I entered Mil/Law Raw 45-49, the record is
259.4; I could walk in and take that in street clothes without
warming up!

This is not intended as a comment on Whit's lifts, or yours,
or anyone else's. But it makes me wonder about how many
lifters participate in AAU Powerlifting. In the USAPL, same
classes, the bench press records are much higher, even though
it's also drug free. I think the records are similar in the
NASA. I don't think I have any chance of setting an American
Record in either of those association, not even in the
Mil/Law Raw 45-49 class. It just seems odd that AAU records
should be so low.

[Kirk Roy]

whit <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> word. should be noted my totals are way above those #'s now.
> even with a superior OLer style squat. well, my gym totals.
> i haven't done a pling meet since then.
>
> i had only been lifting for about 2 years or so at
> that point.
>
> not that i'm embarassed. i find it amusing (and telling)
> that those mediocre totals are still the record, though.

The open/raw records are pretty good through the classes I
checked though, with even the 114 class having higher squat
and bench records. Looking through meet results from the ones
run in richmond impressive near record lifts are done by
several competitors in each weight class. Looks like they have
depth, at least at the richmond meets.

Kirk

[Whit]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:4ihskv89r8t5f2j47aevta1pn6grjqvbfp@4ax.com...
> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >"Lisa" <fd4thawt@earthlink.zappspam.net> wrote ...
> >>
> >> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> >> >
> >> > Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
> >> > Squat/Total. You can up them next year; I think the AAU
> >> > World Meet is heading back to the
left
> >> > coast somewhere.
> >>
> >> He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After style,
> >> it's the coming out on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer.
> >> It's a mesomorphic behavioral trait
in
> >> him. <ducking>
> >
> >Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many*
> >classes, Mil/Law
being
> >only one of many. Add Lifetime, maybe an age group (dunno
> >how old), and trophies for everyone!
>
> That comment made me wonder, so just for kicks and giggles,
> I checked the AAU American Records page. Whit's records is,
> indeed, still in place. But does the AAU have a pretty
> limited association? Right next to Whit's squat is the AAU
> American record for Mil/Law Raw bench press: 303. Shit! I've
> done a raw 305 in the gym a couple of times, and that looks
> like it's the Open record! If I entered Mil/Law Raw 45-49,
> the record is 259.4; I could walk in and take that in street
> clothes without warming up!
>

i'm not sure if they count prosecutor's a "law
enforcement" though.

i mean, technically they are - executive branch, and they
enforce laws.

but, i think they might want to limit participation to REAL
people, not lawyers.

> This is not intended as a comment on Whit's lifts, or
> yours, or anyone else's. But it makes me wonder about how
> many lifters participate in AAU Powerlifting. In the
> USAPL, same classes, the bench press records are much
> higher, even though it's also drug free. I think the
> records are similar in the NASA. I don't think I have any
> chance of setting an American Record in either of those
> association, not even in the
> Mil/Law Raw 45-49 class. It just seems odd that AAU records
> should be so low.

word. should be noted my totals are way above those #'s now.
even with a superior OLer style squat. well, my gym totals. i
haven't done a pling meet since then.

i had only been lifting for about 2 years or so at that point.

not that i'm embarassed. i find it amusing (and telling) that
those mediocre totals are still the record, though.

whit

[Hoff]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:4ihskv89r8t5f2j47aevta1pn6grjqvbfp@4ax.com...
> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >"Lisa" <fd4thawt@earthlink.zappspam.net> wrote ...
> >>
> >> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> >> >
> >> > Dude, you STILL have I think the 198 Raw Mil/Law WR
> >> > Squat/Total. You can up them next year; I think the AAU
> >> > World Meet is heading back to the
left
> >> > coast somewhere.
> >>
> >> He'll only do it if he can be COMPETITIVE. After style,
> >> it's the coming out on top that motivates Mr Richtmyer.
> >> It's a mesomorphic behavioral trait
in
> >> him. <ducking>
> >
> >Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many*
> >classes, Mil/Law
being
> >only one of many. Add Lifetime, maybe an age group (dunno
> >how old), and trophies for everyone!
>
> That comment made me wonder, so just for kicks and giggles,
> I checked the AAU American Records page. Whit's records is,
> indeed, still in place. But does the AAU have a pretty
> limited association? Right next to Whit's squat is the AAU
> American record for Mil/Law Raw bench press: 303. Shit! I've
> done a raw 305 in the gym a couple of times, and that looks
> like it's the Open record! If I entered Mil/Law Raw 45-49,
> the record is 259.4; I could walk in and take that in street
> clothes without warming up!
>
> This is not intended as a comment on Whit's lifts, or
> yours, or anyone else's. But it makes me wonder about how
> many lifters participate in AAU Powerlifting. In the
> USAPL, same classes, the bench press records are much
> higher, even though it's also drug free. I think the
> records are similar in the NASA. I don't think I have any
> chance of setting an American Record in either of those
> association, not even in the
> Mil/Law Raw 45-49 class. It just seems odd that AAU records
> should be so low.

Well, as for the raw records, I only think they've been around
since about '96.

My impression is yeah, if you want to go raw, lifetime,
mil/law, you'll probably lift alone. And the records pretty
much show that result.

Raw seems to be more popular in the lower weight classes; I
had 5 or 6 in the 165 Raw Masters 1 last year. I think David
Moses totalled 1220 or so to win. The Open Raw 165 total was
like 1340.

The Open class records are pretty respectable, both raw and
equipped. Once you start getting to the masters, there are
some low spots. Before last year, the Open Record Squat in my
class was 330, which I beat by over 20 lbs. Unfortunately,
David squatted something like 454 ;) By the time you get to
the "lifetime" and "mil/law" classes, it's really hit or miss.

There's no doubt, though, that the top equipped lifters
gravitate to the USAPL. At least for now, it's the place to
be, with the IPF affiliation. Things may be changing in the
future, who knows. RDC's AAU meet at the USOC training center
may have some long range effects, or maybe not.

Hoff

[John M. Wi]

"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "John M. Williams"
> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many*
> > >classes, Mil/Law being only one of many. Add Lifetime,
> > >maybe an age group (dunno how old),
and
> > >trophies for everyone!
> >
> > That comment made me wonder, so just for kicks and
> > giggles, I checked the AAU American Records page. Whit's
> > records is, indeed, still in place. But does the AAU
> > have a pretty limited association? Right next to Whit's
> > squat is the AAU American record for Mil/Law Raw bench
> > press: 303. Shit! I've done a raw 305 in the gym a
> > couple of times, and that looks like it's the Open
> > record! If I entered Mil/Law Raw 45-49, the record is
> > 259.4; I could walk in and take that in street clothes
> > without warming up!
> >
> > This is not intended as a comment on Whit's lifts, or
> > yours, or anyone else's. But it makes me wonder about how
> > many lifters participate in AAU Powerlifting. In the
> > USAPL, same classes, the bench press records are much
> > higher, even though it's also drug free. I think the
> > records are similar in the NASA. I don't think I have any
> > chance of setting an American Record in either of those
> > association, not even in the
> > Mil/Law Raw 45-49 class. It just seems odd that AAU
> > records should be so low.
>
> Well, as for the raw records, I only think they've been
> around since about '96.
>
> My impression is yeah, if you want to go raw, lifetime,
> mil/law, you'll probably lift alone. And the records pretty
> much show that result.
>
> Raw seems to be more popular in the lower weight classes; I
> had 5 or 6 in the 165 Raw Masters 1 last year. I think David
> Moses totalled 1220 or so
to
> win. The Open Raw 165 total was like 1340.

That I did notice. There's some li'l guys with impressive
lifts on that list.

Of course, the USAPL has a lot of that, too. One of the meet
officials at all the ones I have attended is Dr. Larry Miller.
He's in your class. He doesn't usually compete. But he still
puts on his Titan Fury and, just for exhibition purposes, sees
if he is up to benching three times bodyweight that day.

http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm

> The Open class records are pretty respectable, both raw and
> equipped.
Once
> you start getting to the masters, there are some low spots.
> Before last year, the Open Record Squat in my class was 330,
> which I beat by over 20 lbs. Unfortunately, David squatted
> something like 454 ;) By the time you get to the "lifetime"
> and "mil/law" classes, it's really hit or miss.
>
> There's no doubt, though, that the top equipped lifters
> gravitate to the USAPL. At least for now, it's the place to
> be, with the IPF affiliation. Things may be changing in the
> future, who knows. RDC's AAU meet at the
USOC
> training center may have some long range effects, or
> maybe not.

The USAPL is starting to get some participation in the Raw
category. No published records, though. The closest meets for
me are USAPL (near Cleveland), and I intend to lift raw next
time. I'm also thinking about a NASA Powersports meet (strict
curl, bench, and deadlift) in Springfield, and those are
always raw.

[John M. Wi]

"whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
>
> "John M. Williams"
> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >
> > That comment made me wonder, so just for kicks and
> > giggles, I checked the AAU American Records page. Whit's
> > records is, indeed, still in place. But does the AAU
> > have a pretty limited association? Right next to Whit's
> > squat is the AAU American record for Mil/Law Raw bench
> > press: 303. Shit! I've done a raw 305 in the gym a
> > couple of times, and that looks like it's the Open
> > record! If I entered Mil/Law Raw 45-49, the record is
> > 259.4; I could walk in and take that in street clothes
> > without warming up!
>
> i'm not sure if they count prosecutor's a "law
> enforcement" though.

I've seen rules that I definitely qualify for police olympics.
Under Ohio law, my position is specifically defined as "law
enforcement officer." R.C. 2901.01(A)(11)(h). And I was
permitted to participate in that category in a USAPL meet, but
I bombed, anyway, so it doesn't matter. AAU doesn't much
matter since they don't really have any powerlifting meets in
Ohio. But I see why Hoff likes AAU; it seems that half their
meets are in Virginia.

> i mean, technically they are - executive branch, and they
> enforce laws.
>
> but, i think they might want to limit participation to REAL
> people, not lawyers.

Oh, you mean they favor lazy pension-accruing donut-eaters?

[Whit]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:vksrj2m469eped@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "whit" <whit@whit.net> wrote:
> >
> > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > That comment made me wonder, so just for kicks and
> > > giggles, I checked the AAU American Records page. Whit's
> > > records is, indeed, still in place. But does the AAU
> > > have a pretty limited association? Right next to Whit's
> > > squat is the AAU American record for Mil/Law Raw bench
> > > press: 303. Shit! I've done a raw 305 in the gym a
> > > couple of times, and that looks like it's the Open
> > > record! If I entered Mil/Law Raw 45-49, the record is
> > > 259.4; I could walk in and take that in street clothes
> > > without warming up!
> >
> > i'm not sure if they count prosecutor's a "law
> > enforcement" though.
>
> I've seen rules that I definitely qualify for police
> olympics. Under Ohio law, my position is specifically
> defined as "law enforcement officer." R.C.
> 2901.01(A)(11)(h). And I was permitted to participate in
> that category in a USAPL meet, but I bombed, anyway, so it
> doesn't matter. AAU doesn't much matter since they don't
> really have any powerlifting meets in Ohio. But I see why
> Hoff likes AAU; it seems that half their meets are in
> Virginia.
>

like i said, i agree that prosecutor's are law enforcement.
it's just that they are also lawyers.

nuff said.

> > i mean, technically they are - executive branch, and they
> > enforce laws.
> >
> > but, i think they might want to limit participation to
> > REAL people, not lawyers.
>
> Oh, you mean they favor lazy pension-accruing donut-eaters?
>

this is seattle. it's latte's and muffins, dood.

whit

[Hoff]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:vksq8h8uc8i3ab@corp.supernews.com...
> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> > wrote:
> > > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Well, I'm sure he'd have no problem. AAU has *many*
> > > >classes, Mil/Law being only one of many. Add Lifetime,
> > > >maybe an age group (dunno how old),
> and
> > > >trophies for everyone!
> > >
> > > That comment made me wonder, so just for kicks and
> > > giggles, I checked the AAU American Records page. Whit's
> > > records is, indeed, still in place. But does the AAU
> > > have a pretty limited association? Right next to Whit's
> > > squat is the AAU American record for Mil/Law Raw bench
> > > press: 303. Shit! I've done a raw 305 in the gym a
> > > couple of times, and that looks like it's the Open
> > > record! If I entered Mil/Law Raw 45-49, the record is
> > > 259.4; I could walk in and take that in street clothes
> > > without warming up!
> > >
> > > This is not intended as a comment on Whit's lifts, or
> > > yours, or anyone else's. But it makes me wonder about
> > > how many lifters participate in AAU Powerlifting. In the
> > > USAPL, same classes, the bench press records are much
> > > higher, even though it's also drug free. I think the
> > > records are similar in the NASA. I don't think I have
> > > any chance of setting an American Record in either of
> > > those association, not even in the
> > > Mil/Law Raw 45-49 class. It just seems odd that AAU
> > > records should be so low.
> >
> > Well, as for the raw records, I only think they've been
> > around since
about
> > '96.
> >
> > My impression is yeah, if you want to go raw, lifetime,
> > mil/law, you'll probably lift alone. And the records
> > pretty much show that result.
> >
> > Raw seems to be more popular in the lower weight classes;
> > I had 5 or 6
in
> > the 165 Raw Masters 1 last year. I think David Moses
> > totalled 1220 or
so
> to
> > win. The Open Raw 165 total was like 1340.
>
> That I did notice. There's some li'l guys with impressive
> lifts on that list.
>
> Of course, the USAPL has a lot of that, too. One of the meet
> officials at all the ones I have attended is Dr. Larry
> Miller. He's in your class. He doesn't usually compete. But
> he still puts on his Titan Fury and, just for exhibition
> purposes, sees if he is up to benching three times
> bodyweight that day.
>
> http://www.titansupport.com/products/shirts/fury.htm
>
> > The Open class records are pretty respectable, both raw
> > and equipped.
> Once
> > you start getting to the masters, there are some low
> > spots. Before last year, the Open Record Squat in my class
> > was 330, which I beat by over 20 lbs. Unfortunately, David
> > squatted something like 454 ;) By the time
you
> > get to the "lifetime" and "mil/law" classes, it's really
> > hit or miss.
> >
> > There's no doubt, though, that the top equipped lifters
> > gravitate to the USAPL. At least for now, it's the place
> > to be, with the IPF
affiliation.
> > Things may be changing in the future, who knows. RDC's AAU
> > meet at the
> USOC
> > training center may have some long range effects, or
> > maybe not.
>
> The USAPL is starting to get some participation in the Raw
> category. No published records, though. The closest meets
> for me are USAPL (near Cleveland), and I intend to lift raw
> next time. I'm also thinking about a NASA Powersports meet
> (strict curl, bench, and deadlift) in Springfield, and those
> are always raw.
>

I never really analyzed the results, but taking another look,
you really see the difference in quality and depth between the
equipped vs raw within the AAU.

In the World Meet last fall, pretty much up and down the
board, the raw Open category outclassed the same Open weight
equipped. In quite a few classes, the raw Open winner would
have won the equipped class outright.

Again, I guess it just points out that the top equipped
lifters head to the USAPL, while for raw lifting, the AAU is
probably the largest organization.

I knew the USAPL was running raw bench classes; are they doing
the same for all 3?

I guess it wouldn't matter to me. Yeah, given the choice, I'd
rather lift against raw, but I'm still pretty much outclassed
except for the regional meets. Even then, in another year,
their's a dude here in Virginia, Joe Lineman, who is 39 this
year, but I think pushing a well over 1100 total.

Hoff

[John M. Wi]

"Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Ywu3b.218953$cF.71160@rwcrnsc53...
>
> I knew the USAPL was running raw bench classes; are they
> doing the same
for
> all 3?

Yes, but you don't notice it as much for the others. The only
thing obviously missing in squats is the knee wraps, and
there's no difference in deadlift.

Less obvious, however, is the fact that raw wears only basic
singlets, which is OK with me, since I never got a death-grip
power suit, anyway.

> I guess it wouldn't matter to me. Yeah, given the choice,
> I'd rather lift against raw, but I'm still pretty much
> outclassed except for the regional meets. Even then, in
> another year, their's a dude here in Virginia, Joe
> Lineman, who is 39 this year, but I think pushing a well
> over 1100 total.

Well, given the major presence of AAU meets in Virginia
(compared to none in Ohio), AAU is your best bet. It's odd,
though, that AAU seems to only have major powerlifting events
in Virginia, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania in the east, plus
Oklahoma and Arkansas in the west. I thought they would be
more widespread.

[Hoff]

"John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
in message news:vkt3hhfhcu8h26@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Ywu3b.218953$cF.71160@rwcrnsc53...
> >
> > I knew the USAPL was running raw bench classes; are they
> > doing the same
> for
> > all 3?
>
> Yes, but you don't notice it as much for the others. The
> only thing obviously missing in squats is the knee wraps,
> and there's no difference in
deadlift.
>
> Less obvious, however, is the fact that raw wears only basic
> singlets, which is OK with me, since I never got a
> death-grip power suit, anyway.
>
> > I guess it wouldn't matter to me. Yeah, given the choice,
> > I'd rather
lift
> > against raw, but I'm still pretty much outclassed except
> > for the
regional
> > meets. Even then, in another year, their's a dude here in
> > Virginia, Joe Lineman, who is 39 this year, but I think
> > pushing a well over 1100
total.
>
> Well, given the major presence of AAU meets in Virginia
> (compared to none in Ohio), AAU is your best bet. It's odd,
> though, that AAU seems to only have major powerlifting
> events in Virginia, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania in the
> east, plus Oklahoma and Arkansas in the west. I thought they
> would be more widespread.
>

Actually, in the west, the big meets are in Nevada and
California.

At present, Barbara Beasley here in Richmond is the main meet
director in the east, and Martin Drake in the west.

They tend to flip-flop their largest national/"world" meets
between the two.

I DO think you're going to see a major "consolidation", if you
will, between the AAU, USPF, NASA, and maybe some others. RDC
is leading it for the most part. From what I can see, USAPL
wants nothing to do with it.

Hoff

[Keith Hobm]

In article <CFx3b.219647$cF.71872@rwcrnsc53>, "Hoff"
<hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "John M. Williams" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote in message news:vkt3hhfhcu8h26@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Hoff" <hoffmantt40@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:Ywu3b.218953$cF.71160@rwcrnsc53...
> > >
> > > I knew the USAPL was running raw bench classes; are they
> > > doing the same
> > for
> > > all 3?
> >
> > Yes, but you don't notice it as much for the others. The
> > only thing obviously missing in squats is the knee wraps,
> > and there's no difference in
> deadlift.
> >
> > Less obvious, however, is the fact that raw wears only
> > basic singlets, which is OK with me, since I never got a
> > death-grip power suit, anyway.
> >
> > > I guess it wouldn't matter to me. Yeah, given the
> > > choice, I'd rather
> lift
> > > against raw, but I'm still pretty much outclassed except
> > > for the
> regional
> > > meets. Even then, in another year, their's a dude here
> > > in Virginia, Joe Lineman, who is 39 this year, but I
> > > think pushing a well over 1100
> total.
> >
> > Well, given the major presence of AAU meets in Virginia
> > (compared to none in Ohio), AAU is your best bet. It's
> > odd, though, that AAU seems to only have major
> > powerlifting events in Virginia, Massachusetts, and
> > Pennsylvania in the east, plus Oklahoma and Arkansas in
> > the west. I thought they would be more widespread.
> >
>
> Actually, in the west, the big meets are in Nevada and
> California.
>
> At present, Barbara Beasley here in Richmond is the main
> meet director in the east, and Martin Drake in the west.
>
> They tend to flip-flop their largest national/"world" meets
> between the two.
>
> I DO think you're going to see a major "consolidation", if
> you will, between the AAU, USPF, NASA, and maybe some
> others. RDC is leading it for the most part. From what I can
> see, USAPL wants nothing to do with it.

It'll be problematic for the USPF and the USAPL to get
together. I doubt there would be a problem with some of the
other orgs.

[John Hanso]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:05:02 -0700, Will
<satterwill@netscape.net> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue powerlifting.
>Did a USPF push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
>

I think you did a helluva job. You had good numbers and you
competed...which is what counts.

<snipped an excellent meet report