To the Carb Debaters

[Wuzzy]

Most of the surveys I've seen have implicated fats in obesity,
very few (*none* to my knowledge) have directly implicated
bread and potatos and starches in obesity in americans or any
other country.++Sugar drinks however have been implicated,
though sugar has not.++The indirect aggregated population data
of changes in % over time is not only an indirect measure and
therefore confounded but when you look at absolute rather than
% (which is what you are supposed to look at), the trend is as
expected (positive with lipids).

-------------- ÀÎÅÍ³Ý Ä«¸®½º¸¶ KORNET -------------

[Eric Bohlm]

wuzzy <mypcos@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bi2pnf$fna$1@news1.kornet.net:

> Most of the surveys I've seen have implicated fats in
> obesity, very few (*none* to my knowledge) have directly
> implicated bread and potatos and starches in obesity in
> americans or any other country.++Sugar drinks however have
> been implicated, though sugar has not.++The indirect
> aggregated population data of changes in % over time is not
> only an indirect measure and therefore confounded but when
> you look at absolute rather than % (which is what you are
> supposed to look at), the trend is as expected (positive
> with lipids).

My hunch as to why sugar drinks seem implicated while sugar in
general isn't is a rather simple one; that it's quite a bit
easier to mindlessly consume excessive calories from sugar in
the form of drinks than from other sources. You can drink an
awful lot of pop without feeling full, feeling relief of
hunger, or even feeling that you've eaten anything.

With most other high-sugar foods (candy, baked goods, etc.)
you're quite conscious that you're "eating sweets"; it's much
easier to underestimate your consumption of pop, fruit juice,
or other sugary drinks. Sugary drinks simply bypass a number
of psychological and physiological mechanisms that normally
serve to limit calorie consumption. The usual signals that
you're overindulging are either weak or missing.

I know this explanation lacks the melodrama of, say, the
notion that HFCS is especially bad; it doesn't fit into a
"global capitalism is poisoning our food supply" ideology, for
example. But I think there's something to
it.

A related hunch is that when people eat while watching TV,
they tend to lose track of how much they eat and thus
overconsume. I suspect that a lot of people are actually in a
sort of trance state while watching TV; in addition to
lowering their metabolic rate more than other sedentary
activities, this also bypasses psychological or cultural
signals that one's eating too much.

[Pbeyer]

Eric Bohlman wrote:

> wuzzy <mypcos@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:bi2pnf$fna$1@news1.kornet.net:
>
> > Most of the surveys I've seen have implicated fats in
> > obesity, very few (*none* to my knowledge) have directly
> > implicated bread and potatos and starches in obesity in
> > americans or any other country.++Sugar drinks however have
> > been implicated, though sugar has not.++The indirect
> > aggregated population data of changes in % over time is
> > not only an indirect measure and therefore confounded but
> > when you look at absolute rather than % (which is what you
> > are supposed to look at), the trend is as expected
> > (positive with lipids).
>
> My hunch as to why sugar drinks seem implicated while sugar
> in general isn't is a rather simple one; that it's quite a
> bit easier to mindlessly consume excessive calories from
> sugar in the form of drinks than from other sources. You can
> drink an awful lot of pop without feeling full, feeling
> relief of hunger, or even feeling that you've eaten
> anything.
>
> With most other high-sugar foods (candy, baked goods, etc.)
> you're quite conscious that you're "eating sweets"; it's
> much easier to underestimate your consumption of pop, fruit
> juice, or other sugary drinks. Sugary drinks simply bypass a
> number of psychological and physiological mechanisms that
> normally serve to limit calorie consumption. The usual
> signals that you're overindulging are either weak or
> missing.
>
> I know this explanation lacks the melodrama of, say, the
> notion that HFCS is especially bad; it doesn't fit into a
> "global capitalism is poisoning our food supply" ideology,
> for example. But I think there's something to
> it.
>
> A related hunch is that when people eat while watching TV,
> they tend to lose track of how much they eat and thus
> overconsume. I suspect that a lot of people are actually in
> a sort of trance state while watching TV; in addition to
> lowering their metabolic rate more than other sedentary
> activities, this also bypasses psychological or cultural
> signals that one's eating too much.

This idea was advanced by Cleave in a book from the '60's in
which he said that foods were too easy to eat and left no
satiety. There has been some work through the years that
support that-- perhaps related to glycemic index, work
involved with eating foods, etc. I fed subjects isocaloric
diets several years ago in a study on dietary fiber. Even tho
they consumed the same amount of energy, carb, fat and pro,
those on the low fiber diets felt less satisfied, took far
less time to eat and thought I was giving them less food.
Their weight did not change from one diet to another. Pete

[Mooshie Pe]

On 21 Aug 2003 18:26:50 GMT, Eric Bohlman
<ebohlman@earthlink.net> posted:

>wuzzy <mypcos@hotmail.com> wrote in
>news:bi2pnf$fna$1@news1.kornet.net:
>
>> Most of the surveys I've seen have implicated fats in
>> obesity, very few (*none* to my knowledge) have directly
>> implicated bread and potatos and starches in obesity in
>> americans or any other country.++Sugar drinks however have
>> been implicated, though sugar has not.++The indirect
>> aggregated population data of changes in % over time is not
>> only an indirect measure and therefore confounded but when
>> you look at absolute rather than % (which is what you are
>> supposed to look at), the trend is as expected (positive
>> with lipids).
>
>My hunch as to why sugar drinks seem implicated while sugar
>in general isn't is a rather simple one; that it's quite a
>bit easier to mindlessly consume excessive calories from
>sugar in the form of drinks than from other sources. You can
>drink an awful lot of pop without feeling full, feeling
>relief of hunger, or even feeling that you've eaten anything.
>
>With most other high-sugar foods (candy, baked goods, etc.)
>you're quite conscious that you're "eating sweets"; it's much
>easier to underestimate your consumption of pop, fruit juice,
>or other sugary drinks. Sugary drinks simply bypass a number
>of psychological and physiological mechanisms that normally
>serve to limit calorie consumption. The usual signals that
>you're overindulging are either weak or missing.
>
>I know this explanation lacks the melodrama of, say, the
>notion that HFCS is especially bad; it doesn't fit into a
>"global capitalism is poisoning our food supply" ideology,
>for example. But I think there's something to
>it.
>
>A related hunch is that when people eat while watching TV,
>they tend to lose track of how much they eat and thus
>overconsume. I suspect that a lot of people are actually in a
>sort of trance state while watching TV; in addition to
>lowering their metabolic rate more than other sedentary
>activities, this also bypasses psychological or cultural
>signals that one's eating too much.

Interesting, and on-the-money, as usual, IMHO. Thank's Eric.

[Mike]

"Eric Bohlman" <ebohlman@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns93DE8A04042C2ebohlmanomsdevcom@130.133.1.4...
> Sugary drinks simply bypass a number of psychological and
> physiological
mechanisms
> that normally serve to limit calorie consumption. The
> usual signals
that
> you're overindulging are either weak or missing.
>
************************************

Eric: As you suggested, this study provides evidence that
fructose in particular bypasses the usual feedback loops, and
causes miscellaneous mayhem. MikeV

************
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 76, No. 5,
911-922, November 2002 © 2002 American Society for
Clinical Nutrition

Fructose, weight gain, and the insulin resistance
syndrome1,2,3 Sharon S Elliott, Nancy L Keim, Judith S Stern,
Karen Teff and Peter J Havel 1 From the Department of
Nutrition, University of California, Davis (SSE, JSS, and
PJH); the US Department of Agriculture Western Human Nutrition
Research Center, Davis, CA (NLK); and the Monell Chemical
Senses Institute and the University of Pennsylvania,
Philadelphia (KT).

This review explores whether fructose consumption might be a
contributing factor to the development of obesity and the
accompanying metabolic abnormalities observed in the insulin
resistance syndrome. The per capita disappearance data for
fructose from the combined consumption of sucrose and
high-fructose corn syrup have increased by 26%, from 64 g/d
in 1970 to 81 g/d in 1997. Both plasma insulin and leptin act
in the central nervous system in the long-term regulation of
energy homeostasis. Because fructose does not stimulate
insulin secretion from pancreatic ß cells, the consumption of
foods and beverages containing fructose produces smaller
postprandial insulin excursions than does consumption of
glucose-containing carbohydrate. Because leptin production is
regulated by insulin responses to meals, fructose consumption
also reduces circulating leptin concentrations. The combined
effects of lowered circulating leptin and insulin in
individuals who consume diets that are high in dietary
fructose could therefore increase the likelihood of weight
gain and its associated metabolic sequelae. In addition,
fructose, compared with glucose, is *preferentially
metabolized to lipid in the liver*. Fructose consumption
*induces insulin resistance, impaired glucose tolerance,
hyperinsulinemia, hypertriacylglycerolemia, and hypertension*
in animal models. The data in humans are less clear. Although
there are existing data on the metabolic and endocrine
effects of dietary fructose that suggest that increased
consumption of fructose may be detrimental in terms of body
weight and adiposity and the metabolic indexes associated
with the insulin resistance syndrome, much more research is
needed to fully understand the metabolic effect of dietary
fructose in humans.

[Mooshie Pe]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:53:26 GMT, "Mike"
<mvidler@inamenospam.com> posted:

>
>"Eric Bohlman" <ebohlman@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns93DE8A04042C2ebohlmanomsdevcom@130.133.1.4...
>> Sugary drinks simply bypass a number of psychological and
>> physiological
>mechanisms
>> that normally serve to limit calorie consumption. The usual
>> signals
>that
>> you're overindulging are either weak or missing.
>>
>************************************
>
>Eric: As you suggested, this study provides evidence that
>fructose in particular bypasses the usual feedback loops, and
>causes miscellaneous mayhem. MikeV
>
>************
>American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 76, No. 5,
>911-922, November 2002 © 2002 American Society for Clinical
>Nutrition
>
>
>Fructose, weight gain, and the insulin resistance
>syndrome1,2,3 Sharon S Elliott, Nancy L Keim, Judith S Stern,
>Karen Teff and Peter J Havel 1 From the Department of
>Nutrition, University of California, Davis (SSE, JSS, and
>PJH); the US Department of Agriculture Western Human
>Nutrition Research Center, Davis, CA (NLK); and the Monell
>Chemical Senses Institute and the University of Pennsylvania,
>Philadelphia (KT).
>
>
>This review explores whether fructose consumption might be a
>contributing factor to the development of obesity and the
>accompanying metabolic abnormalities observed in the insulin
>resistance syndrome. The per capita disappearance data for
>fructose from the combined consumption of sucrose and
>high-fructose corn syrup have increased by 26%, from 64 g/d
>in 1970 to 81 g/d in 1997. Both plasma insulin and leptin act
>in the central nervous system in the long-term regulation of
>energy homeostasis. Because fructose does not stimulate
>insulin secretion from pancreatic ß cells, the consumption
>of foods and beverages containing fructose produces smaller
>postprandial insulin excursions than does consumption of
>glucose-containing carbohydrate. Because leptin production is
>regulated by insulin responses to meals, fructose consumption
>also reduces circulating leptin concentrations. The combined
>effects of lowered circulating leptin and insulin in
>individuals who consume diets that are high in dietary
>fructose could therefore increase the likelihood of weight
>gain and its associated metabolic sequelae. In addition,
>fructose, compared with glucose, is *preferentially
>metabolized to lipid in the liver*. Fructose consumption
>*induces insulin resistance, impaired glucose tolerance,
>hyperinsulinemia, hypertriacylglycerolemia, and hypertension*
>in animal models. The data in humans are less clear. Although
>there are existing data on the metabolic and endocrine
>effects of dietary fructose that suggest that increased
>consumption of fructose may be detrimental in terms of body
>weight and adiposity and the metabolic indexes associated
>with the insulin resistance syndrome, much more research is
>needed to fully understand the metabolic effect of dietary
>fructose in humans.

The last half dozen or so lines say much.

Seems though that the old maxim to avoid refined (calorie
concentrated) foods holds as ever.

Sugar, honey, fruit juice, soda all contain around half their
sugar as fructose. We need to stick to wholefoods to avoid
this fructose load and extra calorie problem.

[Ken Leande]

"Mooshie peas" <almostnothing@very.little> wrote in message
news:cu79lvkt7u5kr25gf6r8je1pfms2sdd4kc@4ax.com... ...
> Sugar, honey, fruit juice, soda all contain around half
> their sugar as fructose. We need to stick to wholefoods to
> avoid this fructose load and extra calorie problem.

If a person is training for athletic competition, does your
postulate hold equally for them?

Ken

[Mooshie Pe]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:49:37 -0500, "Ken Leander"
<kleander@hotmail.com> posted:

>
>"Mooshie peas" <almostnothing@very.little> wrote in message
>news:cu79lvkt7u5kr25gf6r8je1pfms2sdd4kc@4ax.com... ...
>> Sugar, honey, fruit juice, soda all contain around half
>> their sugar as fructose. We need to stick to wholefoods to
>> avoid this fructose load and extra calorie problem.
>
>If a person is training for athletic competition, does your
>postulate hold equally for them?
>
>Ken
>

If you use 4000 calories per day, you can probably get all
your needs from 2000 calories of varied wholefoods, and the
rest glucose (or whatever turns you on.)

[Ken Leande]

"Mooshie peas" <almostnothing@very.little> wrote in message
news:515glv8s13lcpepmnguon2sppmhi40nhrm@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:49:37 -0500, "Ken Leander"
> <kleander@hotmail.com> posted:
>
> >
> >"Mooshie peas" <almostnothing@very.little> wrote in message
> >news:cu79lvkt7u5kr25gf6r8je1pfms2sdd4kc@4ax.com... ...
> >> Sugar, honey, fruit juice, soda all contain around half
> >> their sugar as fructose. We need to stick to wholefoods
> >> to avoid this fructose load and extra calorie problem.
> >
> >If a person is training for athletic competition, does your
> >postulate hold equally for them?
> >
> >Ken
> >
>
> If you use 4000 calories per day, you can probably get all
> your needs from 2000 calories of varied wholefoods, and the
> rest glucose (or whatever turns you on.)

Wouldn't all 4000 calories from a varied wholefoods diet
be superior?

Ken