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Jim McGinn
Sat, Jul-12-03, 06:12
Paul Crowley said:

> At some point the issue of how the hominids coped with
> mainland predators has to be faced. Scenarios which pretend
> predators don't exist (like Jim's . . .

Obviously you don't understand my hypothesis. Predators are
central to my hypothesis. More to the point, poverty-induced
community-wide predatory massacres are the main selective
factor in my scenario. And the means by which they, our apith
ancestors, survived (dealt with) these predatory massacres is
by way of symbolic behavior (collective threat
displays)directed at poverty causing inmigrating species.
Prevent (reduce) the inmigration you prevent (reduce) the
poverty. Prevent (reduce) poverty and you prevent (reduce the
probability of occurrence) of predatory massacres.

The ubiquitous presence of large, ferocious, dominant
predators was a fact of life back then. Our LCA was just one
of many prey species. Predators had full reign. No barriers.
In sharp contrast, our apith ancestors were
isolated--literally divided into groups--at these "patches"
of treed habitat. But the most important thing to realize
about predators is the following: they tend to focus on the
easiest meals possible. IOW, they have the ability to
recognize when their prey is tired, weak, sick, old,
injured, hungry, thirsty, desperate, disunited, and
otherwise vulnerable. Given the unique geographic factors I
described, they would have come to realize that some patches
of forest have better pickings for easy apith meals than do
others. More to the point, some apith communities would be
more fully populated with individuals that are: tired, weak,
sick, old, injured, hungry, thirsty, desperate, disunited,
and otherwise vulnerable. Which apiths communities would
these be? The ones that are and have been experiencing an
extended period of poverty.

Local poverty first began to occur on this planet with the
onset, and in the regions effected by, monsoon climate, about
8.1 mya. But it's important not to confuse the distinguishing
characteristic of monsoon habitat--a distinctive and severe
dry season--with poverty. Yes, the two are related. Poverty
is partly caused by seasonal dessication. But seasonal
dessication, a severe and extended dry season, is a regional
phenomena whereas poverty is more of a local phenomena. The
difference is that poverty is partly caused by rate of
depletion of the animals therein. And this can vary greatly
when the whims of migrating, browsing/grazing animals are
factored into the equation.

LCA/chimp/apith territorialistic inspired, emotion-based, rock
throwing, stick wielding behavior--despite the fact that
it was wielded indiscriminately (against any and all
browsing and grazing species) and without its progenitors
having any conscious understanding of its poverty reducing
effects on their community's resources--was the poverty
reducing behavior that emerged amongst our ancestors. All
in all, what it comes down to is that communities
comprised of apiths that displayed this rock throwing,
stick wielding behavior had a much better chance of not
being group selected by predatory massacres that
characterized the dry season of this monsoon habitat. This
is the reason bipedalism emerged.

Jim

Deowll
Mon, Jul-14-03, 06:12
"Jim McGinn" <jimmcginn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ac6a5059.0307111631.7d70cee1@posting.google.com...
> Paul Crowley said:
>
> > At some point the issue of how the hominids coped with
> > mainland predators has to be faced. Scenarios which
> > pretend predators don't exist (like Jim's . . .
>
> Obviously you don't understand my hypothesis. Predators are
> central to my hypothesis. More to the point, poverty-induced
> community-wide predatory massacres are the main selective
> factor in my scenario. And the means by which they, our
> apith ancestors, survived (dealt with) these predatory
> massacres is by way of symbolic behavior (collective threat
> displays)directed at poverty causing inmigrating species.
> Prevent (reduce) the inmigration you prevent (reduce) the
> poverty. Prevent (reduce) poverty and you prevent (reduce
> the probability of occurrence) of predatory massacres.
>
> The ubiquitous presence of large, ferocious, dominant
> predators was a fact of life back then. Our LCA was just one
> of many prey species. Predators had full reign. No barriers.
> In sharp contrast, our apith ancestors were
> isolated--literally divided into groups--at these "patches"
> of treed habitat. But the most important thing to realize
> about predators is the following: they tend to focus on the
> easiest meals possible. IOW, they have the ability to
> recognize when their prey is tired, weak, sick, old,
> injured, hungry, thirsty, desperate, disunited, and
> otherwise vulnerable. Given the unique geographic factors I
> described, they would have come to realize that some patches
> of forest have better pickings for easy apith meals than do
> others. More to the point, some apith communities would be
> more fully populated with individuals that are: tired, weak,
> sick, old, injured, hungry, thirsty, desperate, disunited,
> and otherwise vulnerable. Which apiths communities would
> these be? The ones that are and have been experiencing an
> extended period of poverty.
>
> Local poverty first began to occur on this planet with
> the onset, and in the regions effected by, monsoon
> climate, about
> 8.1 mya. But it's important not to confuse the
> distinguishing characteristic of monsoon habitat--a
> distinctive and severe dry season--with poverty. Yes, the
> two are related. Poverty is partly caused by seasonal
> dessication. But seasonal dessication, a severe and
> extended dry season, is a regional phenomena whereas
> poverty is more of a local phenomena. The difference is
> that poverty is partly caused by rate of depletion of the
> animals therein. And this can vary greatly when the whims
> of migrating, browsing/grazing animals are factored into
> the equation.
>
> LCA/chimp/apith territorialistic inspired, emotion-based,
> rock throwing, stick wielding behavior--despite the fact
> that it was wielded indiscriminately (against any and
> all browsing and grazing species) and without its
> progenitors having any conscious understanding of its
> poverty reducing effects on their community's
> resources--was the poverty reducing behavior that
> emerged amongst our ancestors. All in all, what it comes
> down to is that communities comprised of apiths that
> displayed this rock throwing, stick wielding behavior
> had a much better chance of not being group selected by
> predatory massacres that characterized the dry season of
> this monsoon habitat. This is the reason bipedalism
> emerged.
>
> Jim

You may be missing out on individual selection. In a book I
finally discarded that is at least 20 years old a man reported
his experience of meeting a leapord. His porters who were
local farmers screamed and ran. The idea being to climb a
tree. The cat almost knocked him down going after them.

Jim McGinn
Mon, Jul-14-03, 19:16
"deowll" <deowll@bellsouth.net> wrote

> You may be missing out on individual selection. In a book
> I finally discarded that is at least 20 years old a man
> reported his experience of meeting a leapord. His porters
> who were local farmers screamed and ran. The idea being
> to climb a tree. The cat almost knocked him down going
> after them.

This has nothing to do with the subject I'm discussing. What's
a mystery to me is why this isn't obvious to you.

Jim

Deowll
Tue, Jul-15-03, 19:15
"Jim McGinn" <jimmcginn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ac6a5059.0307141023.1dbdec40@posting.google.com...
> "deowll" <deowll@bellsouth.net> wrote
>
> > You may be missing out on individual selection. In a book
> > I finally discarded that is at least 20 years old a man
> > reported his experience of meeting a leapord. His porters
> > who were local farmers screamed and ran.
The
> > idea being to climb a tree. The cat almost knocked him
> > down going after them.
>
> This has nothing to do with the subject I'm discussing.
> What's a mystery to me is why this isn't obvious to you.
>
> Jim

The individual doesn't matter, just the group. Of course
groups are composed of individuals and if you aren't allowing
for that.....