Okinawa no longer number one

[John De Ho]

Okinawa has long been looked to as a model for long, healthy
life. Japan as a whole has the world's best longevity record,
and Okinawa ranked at the top of all prefectures -- until now.

Today, Okinawa has fallen to 26th in Japan. The number
one prefecture is Nagano (where the Winter Olympics were
held in 1998).

So what happened to Okinawa? Observers blame a drift away from
the traditional diet, influenced by Western foods (Okinawa
hosts US military bases), and by the increase in working
mothers, who no longer have the time to prepare the
traditional dishes or learn how to prepare them properly. (One
girl who still likes goya champon -- the only one in her class
-- says she likes it the way her grandmother cooks it better
than her mother's version.)

Of course the traditional Okinawa diet itself is still a good
one. The drop in longevity as people move away from it is
evidence of that.

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[John The M]

>Subject: Okinawa no longer number one From: "John de Hoog"
>dehoog@dehoog.org Date: 7/4/03 9:03 AM !!!First Boot!!!

>Okinawa has long been looked to as a model for long, healthy
>life. Japan as a whole has the world's best longevity
>record, and Okinawa ranked at the top of all prefectures --
>until now.

It would be refreshing to hear you report on a topic not
remotely related to Japan.

[John De Ho]

John de Hoog wrote...

> (One girl who still likes goya champon -- the only one in
> her class --

Sorry, that should have been goya chanpuru. See:

http://www.okinawa.com/goyachanpuru.html

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[Mark D.]

"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
news:20030704050359.434$yR@news.
>
> Of course the traditional Okinawa diet itself is still a
> good one. The
drop
> in longevity as people move away from it is evidence
> of that.

Greetings, John,

Y'know, every time I hear about the seeming advantages of the
'Okinawan diet', a little voice in my head reminds me that the
people who do so well on it overwhelmingly possess *Okinawan
genetics*. How significant do you think the role played by
their genetics might be here?

Thanks,

Mark D.

[Quentin Gr]

This post not CC'd by email On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 09:03:59 GMT,
"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>Okinawa has long been looked to as a model for long, healthy
>life. Japan as a whole has the world's best longevity
>record, and Okinawa ranked at the top of all prefectures --
>until now.
>
>Today, Okinawa has fallen to 26th in Japan. The number one
>prefecture is Nagano (where the Winter Olympics were held
>in 1998).

G'day G'day John,

Has life expectancy risen in the other prefectures?

Does Okinawa still have four times the rate of centenarians as
the rest of Japan? What I am asking here is this ... are there
two dietary cultures currently present in Okinawa. The modern
one with a shorter life expectancy and the traditional one
with longer life expectancy. Now that would be most
interesting because the climate and some other factors could
be eliminated as variables.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the
blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

[John De Ho]

A correction and link to the full story.

> Okinawa has long been looked to as a model for long, healthy
> life. Japan as a whole has the world's best longevity
> record, and Okinawa ranked at the top of all prefectures --
> until now.
>
> Today, Okinawa has fallen to 26th in Japan. The number one
> prefecture is Nagano (where the Winter Olympics were held
> in 1998).

Now that I've seen this story in Reuters (earlier I was
relying on a TV program here in Tokyo, which I saw only part
of), I note that the "26th" applies to Okinawan men and
Nagano men.

Here's the article in English:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=31&art_id=qw105702624-
1418B241&set_id=1

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[M00sh]

On 04 Jul 2003 09:15:18 GMT, jhgohde@wmconnect.comSnarf (John
the Man) wrote:

>>Subject: Okinawa no longer number one From: "John de Hoog"
>>dehoog@dehoog.org Date: 7/4/03 9:03 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>>Okinawa has long been looked to as a model for long, healthy
>>life. Japan as a whole has the world's best longevity
>>record, and Okinawa ranked at the top of all prefectures --
>>until now.
>
>It would be refreshing to hear you report on a topic not
>remotely related to Japan.

Why? Sounds like an idiotic request. Oh, I see, GOHDE made it.
Nuff said :(

[John De Ho]

Mark D wrote...

> Y'know, every time I hear about the seeming advantages of
> the 'Okinawan diet', a little voice in my head reminds me
> that the people who do so well on it overwhelmingly possess
> *Okinawan genetics*. How significant do you think the role
> played by their genetics might be here?

Sure, but the drop in rank accompanies a change in diet, not a
change in genetics.

There is also plenty of evidence that Japanese who move to
America, for example, when they adopt a "typical" American
diet, suffer the same problems (increased diabetes, weight
gain, large buttocks) as other Americans.

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[M00sh]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 01:20:26 +0100, "Mark D."
<smoothie@notavirgin.net> wrote:

>"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
>news:20030704050359.434$yR@news.
>>
>> Of course the traditional Okinawa diet itself is still a
>> good one. The
>drop
>> in longevity as people move away from it is evidence
>> of that.
>
>
>Greetings, John,
>
>Y'know, every time I hear about the seeming advantages of the
>'Okinawan diet', a little voice in my head reminds me that
>the people who do so well on it overwhelmingly possess
>*Okinawan genetics*. How significant do you think the role
>played by their genetics might be here?

I would say HUGE. An isolated community will evolve toward
surviving a particular diet. Imposing this on folk of a
different genetic makeup will show results probably similar to
when the Okinawans first started
it. Disease and premature death in some, leading to the
survival of those who could tolerate it.

[John De Ho]

Quentin Grady wrote...

> Has life expectancy risen in the other prefectures?

Yes, for the most part.

Looking at the actual data, the difference between the highest
and lowest prefectures *from adulthood* is not so great.

Average life expectancy for those 25 to 30 years of age:
(recent figures) Men: Highest (Nagano) 80.68, Lowest (Aomori)
78.76 Women: Highest (Okinawa) 89.26, Lowest (Aomori) 87.14

Average life expectancy at birth: (from year 2000 statistics)
Men: Highest (Nagano) 78.8, Lowest (Aomori) 74.71 Women:
Highest (Okinawa) 85.08, Lowest (Hyogo) 81.83

> Does Okinawa still have four times the rate of centenarians
> as the rest of Japan? What I am asking here is this ... are
> there two dietary cultures currently present in Okinawa. The
> modern one with a shorter life expectancy and the
> traditional one with longer life expectancy. Now that would
> be most interesting because the climate and some other
> factors could be eliminated as variables.

The latest figures I have are from last year, but it obviously
has not changed much. 100 years or above population per 10,000
National average: 14.9 Okinawa: 39.5 Kochi: 35.6 Shimane:
28.65 Saitama: 6.56

Another thing about the Okinawa population is that it has
the highest ratio of children (15 and under) in Japan. And
the elderly population is skewed toward the upper end (75
and older). The 65-and-above ratio is actually among the
lowest in Japan. So your comment about two dietary cultures
may be accurate.

Interestingly, when Okinawans emigrate to Brazil, their life
expectancy drops; but for those in Hawaii it goes up even
higher. The Hawaii contingent eats more fruit and vegetables
and less salt, but is a bit more obese and has higher blood
pressure. Most importantly, perhaps, the percentage of smokers
in Hawaii is only around 5%, much lower than in Okinawa.

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[Mark D.]

"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
news:20030704203018.918$i7@news.newsreader.com...
> Mark D wrote...
>
> > Y'know, every time I hear about the seeming advantages of
> > the 'Okinawan diet', a little voice in my head reminds me
> > that the people who do so
well
> > on it overwhelmingly possess *Okinawan genetics*. How
> > significant do you think the role played by their genetics
> > might be here?
>
> Sure, but the drop in rank accompanies a change in diet, not
> a change in genetics.

Indeed. But my point was that they *might be better suited* to
their traditional diet than we would be!

>
> There is also plenty of evidence that Japanese who move to
> America, for example, when they adopt a "typical" American
> diet, suffer the same
problems
> (increased diabetes, weight gain, large buttocks) as other
> Americans.

Absolutely! But - again - my point was about whether their
diet is as good for *us*, not whether the worst of all
possible diets is bad for them!

Do I make myself clearer this time? My initial post was more
ambiguous than I thought!

Mark D.

[M00sh]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 00:30:13 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>Mark D wrote...
>
>> Y'know, every time I hear about the seeming advantages of
>> the 'Okinawan diet', a little voice in my head reminds me
>> that the people who do so well on it overwhelmingly possess
>> *Okinawan genetics*. How significant do you think the role
>> played by their genetics might be here?
>
>Sure, but the drop in rank accompanies a change in diet, not
>a change in genetics.

This surely follows. Try the Okinawans on a Med diet :)

>There is also plenty of evidence that Japanese who move to
>America, for example, when they adopt a "typical" American
>diet, suffer the same problems (increased diabetes, weight
>gain, large buttocks) as other Americans.

Yep. Americans (and others) have not evolved to tolerate their
typical diet yet. Some do fine on it, some suffer badly, and
if they have enough willpower will move to a way of life that
they can tolerate. Our Aborigines are markedly intolerant of
Western diet, even more so than we Anglo interlopers. I
believe American Indigenes are similar.

[John De Ho]

M00SH wrote...

> >Y'know, every time I hear about the seeming advantages of
> >the 'Okinawan diet', a little voice in my head reminds me
> >that the people who do so well on it overwhelmingly possess
> >*Okinawan genetics*. How significant do you think the role
> >played by their genetics might be here?
>
> I would say HUGE. An isolated community will evolve toward
> surviving a particular diet. Imposing this on folk of a
> different genetic makeup will show results probably similar
> to when the Okinawans first started
> it. Disease and premature death in some, leading to the
> survival of those who could tolerate it.

That's all speculation. I think you are wrong anyway in
thinking of the Okinawans as an isolated community. There have
been many influences over the years from various peoples. You
are also mistaken in implying that their diet is so peculiar
that other people would have trouble adapting to it. The
Okinawan diet is successful not just for what they eat, but
for what they do
(did) not eat.

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[M00sh]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 08:34:04 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>Quentin Grady wrote...
>
>> Has life expectancy risen in the other prefectures?
>
>Yes, for the most part.
>
>Looking at the actual data, the difference between the
>highest and lowest prefectures *from adulthood* is not
>so great.
>
>Average life expectancy for those 25 to 30 years of age:
>(recent figures) Men: Highest (Nagano) 80.68, Lowest (Aomori)
>78.76 Women: Highest (Okinawa) 89.26, Lowest (Aomori) 87.14
>
>Average life expectancy at birth: (from year 2000 statistics)
>Men: Highest (Nagano) 78.8, Lowest (Aomori) 74.71 Women:
>Highest (Okinawa) 85.08, Lowest (Hyogo) 81.83
>
>> Does Okinawa still have four times the rate of centenarians
>> as the rest of Japan? What I am asking here is this ... are
>> there two dietary cultures currently present in Okinawa.
>> The modern one with a shorter life expectancy and the
>> traditional one with longer life expectancy. Now that would
>> be most interesting because the climate and some other
>> factors could be eliminated as variables.
>
>The latest figures I have are from last year, but it
>obviously has not changed much. 100 years or above population
>per 10,000 National average: 14.9 Okinawa: 39.5 Kochi: 35.6
>Shimane: 28.65 Saitama: 6.56
>
>Another thing about the Okinawa population is that it has the
>highest ratio of children (15 and under) in Japan. And the
>elderly population is skewed toward the upper end (75 and
>older). The 65-and-above ratio is actually among the lowest
>in Japan. So your comment about two dietary cultures may be
>accurate.
>
>Interestingly, when Okinawans emigrate to Brazil, their
>life expectancy drops; but for those in Hawaii it goes up
>even higher. The Hawaii contingent eats more fruit and
>vegetables and less salt, but is a bit more obese and has
>higher blood pressure. Most importantly, perhaps, the
>percentage of smokers in Hawaii is only around 5%, much
>lower than in Okinawa.

Fascinating. Thanks John. Food for thought :)

[Quentin Gr]

This post not CC'd by email On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 08:34:04 GMT,
"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>Quentin Grady wrote...
>
>> Has life expectancy risen in the other prefectures?
>
>Yes, for the most part.
>
>Looking at the actual data, the difference between the
>highest and lowest prefectures *from adulthood* is not
>so great.
>
>Average life expectancy for those 25 to 30 years of age:
>(recent figures) Men: Highest (Nagano) 80.68, Lowest (Aomori)
>78.76 Women: Highest (Okinawa) 89.26, Lowest (Aomori) 87.14
>
>Average life expectancy at birth: (from year 2000 statistics)
>Men: Highest (Nagano) 78.8, Lowest (Aomori) 74.71 Women:
>Highest (Okinawa) 85.08, Lowest (Hyogo) 81.83

G'day G'day John,

Fascinating. Life expectancy is still highest for women in
Okinawa. For couples who wish to live to a ripe old age the
men could go to Nagona and the women to Okinawa. <grin>

>> Does Okinawa still have four times the rate of centenarians
>> as the rest of Japan? What I am asking here is this ... are
>> there two dietary cultures currently present in Okinawa.
>> The modern one with a shorter life expectancy and the
>> traditional one with longer life expectancy. Now that would
>> be most interesting because the climate and some other
>> factors could be eliminated as variables.
>
>The latest figures I have are from last year, but it
>obviously has not changed much. 100 years or above population
>per 10,000 National average: 14.9 Okinawa: 39.5 Kochi: 35.6
>Shimane: 28.65 Saitama: 6.56
>
>Another thing about the Okinawa population is that it has the
>highest ratio of children (15 and under) in Japan. And the
>elderly population is skewed toward the upper end (75 and
>older). The 65-and-above ratio is actually among the lowest
>in Japan. So your comment about two dietary cultures may be
>accurate.

One of the supposed innovations in the Okinawan diet has been
a reduction in salt intake. I mention it as just one of the
dietary options that might be relevant. Let's say on Okinawa
we have all sorts of dietary changes taking place since the
diet is somewhat eclectic. It seems reasonable that not every
one will make all the changes. It could be there is some
pretty severe filtering for those who happen to make the
right choices.

>Interestingly, when Okinawans emigrate to Brazil, their
>life expectancy drops; but for those in Hawaii it goes up
>even higher. The Hawaii contingent eats more fruit and
>vegetables and less salt, but is a bit more obese and has
>higher blood pressure. Most importantly, perhaps, the
>percentage of smokers in Hawaii is only around 5%, much
>lower than in Okinawa.

I had met the factoid of Okinawans moving to Hawaii having
higher life expectancy and wondered if that might have been
selection for affluence. Affluence is often associated with
over eating but the Okinawans have had a strong tradition of
not doing so. Affluent people who don't over eat might have
the best chance of longevity.

Best wishes,

--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the
blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

[John De Ho]

Mark D wrote...

> the drop in rank accompanies a change in diet, not a
> change in
> > genetics.
>
> Indeed. But my point was that they *might be better suited*
> to their traditional diet than we would be!

OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in general, is
there evidence that some populations are genetically suited to
certain diets? Are Italians suited to pasta, or Irish to
potatoes? (I think not.)

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[M00sh]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 03:01:28 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>M00SH wrote...
>
>> >Y'know, every time I hear about the seeming advantages of
>> >the 'Okinawan diet', a little voice in my head reminds me
>> >that the people who do so well on it overwhelmingly
>> >possess *Okinawan genetics*. How significant do you think
>> >the role played by their genetics might be here?
>>
>> I would say HUGE. An isolated community will evolve toward
>> surviving a particular diet. Imposing this on folk of a
>> different genetic makeup will show results probably similar
>> to when the Okinawans first started
>> it. Disease and premature death in some, leading to the
>> survival of those who could tolerate it.
>
>That's all speculation.

Of course. My first sentence makes this clear.

> I think you are wrong anyway in thinking of the Okinawans as
> an isolated community. There have been many influences over
> the years from various peoples.

But have those other peoples been radically different in their
eating/exercise habits, and have they settled there and
changed those eating/exercise patterns?

>You are also mistaken in implying that their diet is so
>peculiar that other people would have trouble adapting to it.

I never said that. I said that it possibly won't make other
genetic groups (used to different diets) have healthy old
ages. Why does a Western diet suit some Westerners (not
nearly enough, unfortunately) and yet cause havoc in some
other cultures who are used to a radically different eating
pattern? Indigenous populations of recently conquered lands,
for instance.

>The Okinawan diet is successful not just for what they eat,
>but for what they do
>(did) not eat.

Such as? Too many calories seems to be the only thing I can
think of (of course with the concommitant lack of exercise).

[Quentin Gr]

This post not CC'd by email On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 03:01:28 GMT,
"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>That's all speculation. I think you are wrong anyway in
>thinking of the Okinawans as an isolated community. There
>have been many influences over the years from various
>peoples. You are also mistaken in implying that their diet is
>so peculiar that other people would have trouble adapting to
>it. The Okinawan diet is successful not just for what they
>eat, but for what they do
>(did) not eat.

G'day G'day John,

I agree with you in thinking the Okinawans were not an
isolated community. The evidence that supports that
contention for me is the introduction of sweet potato and
pork from China. Rice is a very modern thing and reflects
the later Japanese influence. The records show at one time
only public officials received any rice. The lowest grade
officials to receive any rice were school teachers. Below
that the diet was almost entirely sweet potato. The
estimated carbohydrate level was 80%. It is only in this
century that the carbohydrate level has been reduced to
approximately 55% and the life expectancy increased to
anything at all remarkable. Personally I don't see any
likelihood of genetic selection during that time. If one
wants to pursue the genetic selection argument one has to
postulate that selection for survival on an ultra high 80%
carb diet predisposed them to live longer when provided with
more protein and fat.

I suppose it is possible. Are there other examples of
populations living on a starchy diet experiencing an increase
in life expectancy when given more protein and fat?

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the
blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

[Doug Frees]

Quentin Grady wrote:

> G'day G'day John,
>
> Fascinating. Life expectancy is still highest for women in
> Okinawa. For couples who wish to live to a ripe old age
> the men could go to Nagona and the women to Okinawa.
> <grin>

Subtle form of birth control . :)

--
Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go
inside" - B. McKibben Doug Freese dfreese@hvc.rr.com

[Mark D.]

"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
news:20030704205220.304$ND@news.newsreader.com...
> Mark D wrote...
>
> > the drop in rank accompanies a change in diet, not a
> > change in
> > > genetics.
> >
> > Indeed. But my point was that they *might be better
> > suited* to their traditional diet than we would be!
>
> OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in general,
> is there
evidence
> that some populations are genetically suited to certain
> diets? Are
Italians
> suited to pasta, or Irish to potatoes? (I think not.)

Dunno who would have thought of *looking* for this evidence -
apart from you and me! And I don't think the *genomics* of it
could even have been contemplated before this present century.
But your Italian and Irish examples are significant for me: I
don't know about Italian dietary history, but I *do* know that
the Irish haven't had *time* to evolve to suit a potato-rich
diet. Whereas isolated, stable Okinawan society has had *ages*
to get adapted to what it eats!!

Mark D.

[M00sh]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 00:52:14 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>Mark D wrote...
>
>> the drop in rank accompanies a change in diet, not a
>> change in
>> > genetics.
>>
>> Indeed. But my point was that they *might be better suited*
>> to their traditional diet than we would be!
>
>OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in general, is
>there evidence that some populations are genetically suited
>to certain diets? Are Italians suited to pasta, or Irish to
>potatoes? (I think not.)

Your examples aren't good. I guess better ones would be
Cretans are better suited to a long traditional Cretan diet,
and Okinawans are better suited to a long traditional Okinawan
diet. Note these are both small islands? The significance of
this would be that they have not been subject to outside
influences and their diets would have been those of necessity.

[Tim Tyler]

In sci.life-extension John de Hoog <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

: OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in general,
: is there evidence that some populations are genetically
: suited to certain diets? Are Italians suited to pasta, or
: Irish to potatoes? (I think not.)

E.g. see: "Lactase Haplotype Diversity in the Old World"

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n1/00-
2187/002187.html
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1.org

[John De Ho]

M00SH wrote...

> >OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in general,
> >is there evidence that some populations are genetically
> >suited to certain diets? Are Italians suited to pasta, or
> >Irish to potatoes? (I think not.)
>
> Your examples aren't good. I guess better ones would be
> Cretans are better suited to a long traditional Cretan diet,
> and Okinawans are better suited to a long traditional
> Okinawan diet. Note these are both small islands? The
> significance of this would be that they have not been
> subject to outside influences and their diets would have
> been those of necessity.

The Irish ate potatoes because that's all they could
think to grow. (When potato blight struck, they died or
left in droves.)

The people of Okinawa and the other islands in the Ryukyu
chain came originally from other parts of Asia and the
Pacific. But this whole notion of being genetically suited to
certain types of diet is suspect. Even monkeys and crows can
adapt quickly to wherever they happen to be. Human beings are
no different.

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[M00sh]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 02:53:35 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>M00SH wrote...
>
>> >OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in general,
>> >is there evidence that some populations are genetically
>> >suited to certain diets? Are Italians suited to pasta, or
>> >Irish to potatoes? (I think not.)
>>
>> Your examples aren't good. I guess better ones would be
>> Cretans are better suited to a long traditional Cretan
>> diet, and Okinawans are better suited to a long traditional
>> Okinawan diet. Note these are both small islands? The
>> significance of this would be that they have not been
>> subject to outside influences and their diets would have
>> been those of necessity.
>
>The Irish ate potatoes because that's all they could
>think to grow. (When potato blight struck, they died or
>left in droves.)

Because the English landlords stole all their other crops to
sell to become rich.

>The people of Okinawa and the other islands in the
>Ryukyu chain came originally from other parts of Asia
>and the Pacific.

A long time ago.

>But this whole notion of being genetically suited to certain
>types of diet is suspect. Even monkeys and crows can adapt
>quickly to wherever they happen to be. Human beings are no
>different.

Of course, anyone can "adapt" more or less well. But we are
talking about chronic effects of a lifetime of eating habits.
I don't believe crows and monkeys are interested in this.

[Gym Bob]

Yes, Only human beings want to live past 3 years.

"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
news:20030704225341.611$Wg@news.newsreader.com...
> M00SH wrote...
>
> > >OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in
> > >general, is there evidence that some populations are
> > >genetically suited to certain diets? Are Italians suited
> > >to pasta, or Irish to potatoes? (I think not.)
> >
> > Your examples aren't good. I guess better ones would be
> > Cretans are better suited to a long traditional Cretan
> > diet, and Okinawans are better suited to a long
> > traditional Okinawan diet. Note these are both small
> > islands? The significance of this would be that they have
> > not been subject to outside influences and their diets
> > would have been those of necessity.
>
> The Irish ate potatoes because that's all they could think
> to grow. (When potato blight struck, they died or left in
> droves.)
>
> The people of Okinawa and the other islands in the Ryukyu
> chain came originally from other parts of Asia and the
> Pacific. But this whole notion of being genetically suited
> to certain types of diet is suspect. Even monkeys and crows
> can adapt quickly to wherever they happen to be. Human
> beings are no different.
>
> --
> John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[Quentin Gr]

This post not CC'd by email On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 02:53:35 GMT,
"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>The Irish ate potatoes because that's all they could
>think to grow. (When potato blight struck, they died or
>left in droves.)

G'day G'day John,

IMHO it is most unlike you to say something that on the
surface appears unfair and prejudiced. Perhaps the statement
has gained or lost something in the writing or reading.

As I understand it, from the point of view of someone
interested in how domestication of plants effect
civilizations, at one time Ireland had a high rural population
density. Milk and potatoes provided the staples of a viable
means of sustenance given the climate the soil type. When live
stock was driven off and slaughtered by overseas landlords
little was left. The big advantage of the potato crop was that
it required the effort involved in digging it up to steal. As
I understand it, it was at this time that the range of
vegetables grown became sadly impoverished.

Whatever nationality any of us are we can only look back in
disgust at the practice of ensuring all maize bound for
Ireland had to be cooked to prevent it being sown to grow
crops to feed a starving population. While these statements
might appear anti-English, I think it is important to grasp
that at that time they were in the grip of the notion that the
economics of supply and demand was paramount.

Similar devastation occurred in continental Europe but the
effects were less severe at the rural population density was
less and the situation in Ireland was complicated by late
severe frosts and other unseasonal weather, apparently related
to an El Nino like effect.

Blights have brought about major changes to other economies.
Many people are unaware that the English were once coffee
drinkers and coffee houses were the centres of political
debate and gaming. The expression "coffee housing" comes from
this era when one dissuaded one's opponent from a good move by
making facial expressions or "helped" one's partner bid at
whist by voice intonation. The coffee house era passed when
blight swept across Ceylon and the plantation owners were
forced to plant tea ... the English for the first time became
a nation of tea drinkers.

Best wishes,

--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the
blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

[Mark D.]

"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
news:20030704225341.611$Wg@news.
>
> The Irish ate potatoes because that's all they could think
> to grow. (When potato blight struck, they died or left in
> droves.)

John, it takes a lot to shock me on a newsgroup, but what
you've just said is, frankly, a disgrace.

Have some facts:
http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/potato.htm

>
> The people of Okinawa and the other islands in the Ryukyu
> chain came originally from other parts of Asia and the
> Pacific. But this whole notion of being genetically suited
> to certain types of diet is suspect. Even monkeys and crows
> can adapt quickly to wherever they happen to be. Human
> beings are no different.

There's a fallacy involved in the above, which I would point
out except that being involved with your posts now gives me an
unclean feeling. You should consider changing your name to
Gohde. Then we'd all know what we were getting into.

M.

[Mike Leake]

"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
news:20030704225341.611$Wg@news.newsreader.com...
> The people of Okinawa and the other islands in the Ryukyu
> chain came originally from other parts of Asia and the
> Pacific. But this whole notion of being genetically suited
> to certain types of diet is suspect. Even monkeys and crows
> can adapt quickly to wherever they happen to be. Human
> beings are no different.

I've often wondered about this issue of genetic suitability
to diet. While I have no concrete proof, I'm inclined to
think there may be something to it when basic elements of the
diet have been in place for many centuries or even for
thousands of years.

My girlfriend is originally from South Korea. Whenever we eat
Asian cuisine together, I'm astonished at the volume of rice
she consumes at a sitting. Yet she seems to fare well on it.
I, on the other hand, being mostly of Scotch-Irish ancestry
with a little German tossed in, find I can only eat perhaps
10-15% that volume of rice. If I consume more, my whole
physiology feels out of kilter, like an engine running one
cylinder short or operating on entirely the wrong kind of
fuel. I feel sleepy, uncharacteristically irritable and
mentally sluggish.

Extensive blood workups every couple of years reveal a fasting
blood glucose for me around 80, so pre-diabetes seems a very
remote possibility. Ordinarily I'm mentally alert and have
quite a bit of energy. I've concluded over the years that my
physiology just isn't suited to that type of diet. Hers,
possibly through inherited genetic adaptation, just might be.

I have little doubt that the human body can adapt to a wide
variety of diets in order to survive. I'm sure that I could
learn to adapt and survive on a much higher volume of rice (or
other high carbohydrate) diet. But what's optimal for any one
person--as opposed to what is workable--may well be influenced
by genetics.

Mike Leake

[M00sh]

On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 03:41:07 GMT, "Gym Bob"
<NonAtAll@nospam.com> wrote:

>Yes, Only human beings want to live past 3 years.

Wide knowledge of zoology noted. Snarf!

>"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
>news:20030704225341.611$Wg@news.newsreader.com...
>> M00SH wrote...
>>
>> > >OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in
>> > >general, is there evidence that some populations are
>> > >genetically suited to certain diets? Are Italians suited
>> > >to pasta, or Irish to potatoes? (I think not.)
>> >
>> > Your examples aren't good. I guess better ones would be
>> > Cretans are better suited to a long traditional Cretan
>> > diet, and Okinawans are better suited to a long
>> > traditional Okinawan diet. Note these are both small
>> > islands? The significance of this would be that they have
>> > not been subject to outside influences and their diets
>> > would have been those of necessity.
>>
>> The Irish ate potatoes because that's all they could think
>> to grow. (When potato blight struck, they died or left in
>> droves.)
>>
>> The people of Okinawa and the other islands in the Ryukyu
>> chain came originally from other parts of Asia and the
>> Pacific. But this whole notion of being genetically suited
>> to certain types of diet is suspect. Even monkeys and crows
>> can adapt quickly to wherever they happen to be. Human
>> beings are no different.
>>
>> --
>> John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[M00sh]

On 04 Jul 2003 12:17:08 GMT, jhgohde@wmconnect.comSnarf (John
the Man) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Okinawa no longer number one From: M00SH
>>noll@noll.noll Date: 7/4/03 10:08 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>>>It would be refreshing to hear you report on a topic not
>>>remotely related to Japan.
>
>>Why? Sounds like an idiotic request. Oh, I see, GOHDE made
>>it. Nuff said :(
>
>Sounds like an idiotic comment. Oh, I see, MOOSH made it.
>Nuff said :(

I asked why you commented that this poster should vary from
posting anything to do with Japan. No answer, I see.

[M00sh]

On 04 Jul 2003 13:12:12 GMT, jhgohde@wmconnect.comSnarf (John
the Man) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Okinawa no longer number one From: M00SH
>>noll@noll.noll Date: 7/4/03 12:42 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>>Message-id: <oetagv047ehplcru7dc83tn3rh7bumoeuh@4ax.com>
>>
>>On 04 Jul 2003 12:17:08 GMT, jhgohde@wmconnect.comSnarf
>>(John the Man) wrote:
>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Okinawa no longer number one From: M00SH
>>>>noll@noll.noll Date: 7/4/03 10:08 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>>>
>>>>>It would be refreshing to hear you report on a topic not
>>>>>remotely related
>>to
>>>>>Japan.
>>>
>>>>Why? Sounds like an idiotic request. Oh, I see, GOHDE made
>>>>it. Nuff said :(
>>>
>>>Sounds like an idiotic comment. Oh, I see, MOOSH made it.
>>>Nuff said :(
>>
>>
>>I asked why you commented that this poster should vary from
>>posting anything to do with Japan. No answer, I see.
>
>I repeat: Why are you asking such a ignorant question?

Because I can't see what your problem with this poster
is, GOHDE.

>Anybody who has spent any length of time at all on smn at
>all, realizes that this lanaguage translator writes only
>about Japanize topics.

And this causes you a problem how? GOHDE? I hadn't even
noticed.

>Why are you so Stupid, Moosh Brain?

I can see why everyone else seems that way to you, GOHDE.

You have my condolences, you IDIOT GOHDE!

[Wuzzy]

"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
> Another thing about the Okinawa population is that it has
> the highest ratio of children (15 and under) in Japan. And
> the elderly population is skewed toward the upper end (75
> and older). The 65-and-above ratio is actually among the
> lowest in Japan. So your comment about two dietary cultures
> may be accurate.
>
> Interestingly, when Okinawans emigrate to Brazil, their life
> expectancy drops; but for those in Hawaii it goes up even
> higher. The Hawaii contingent eats more fruit and vegetables
> and less salt, but is a bit more obese and has higher blood
> pressure. Most importantly, perhaps, the percentage of
> smokers in Hawaii is only around 5%, much lower than in
> Okinawa.

Off topic but it is widely thought to be environmental and an
argument against genes is that there can be no evolution after
reproductive age, so that very-old-age is probably not
evolutionarily desirable. Must be environmental (or chaotic)
effect.. Unless they are still living with their kids in which
case there is an evolutionary effect via kid's fitness.

Okay now I'm getting sucked into making evolutionary (poo poo)
arguments.

[Mmo0$H]

On 5 Jul 2003 21:25:40 -0700, mypcos@hotmail.com (wuzzy)
wrote:

>"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
>> Another thing about the Okinawa population is that it has
>> the highest ratio of children (15 and under) in Japan. And
>> the elderly population is skewed toward the upper end (75
>> and older). The 65-and-above ratio is actually among the
>> lowest in Japan. So your comment about two dietary cultures
>> may be accurate.
>>
>> Interestingly, when Okinawans emigrate to Brazil, their
>> life expectancy drops; but for those in Hawaii it goes up
>> even higher. The Hawaii contingent eats more fruit and
>> vegetables and less salt, but is a bit more obese and has
>> higher blood pressure. Most importantly, perhaps, the
>> percentage of smokers in Hawaii is only around 5%, much
>> lower than in Okinawa.
>
>Off topic but it is widely thought to be environmental and an
>argument against genes is that there can be no evolution
>after reproductive age, so that very-old-age is probably not
>evolutionarily desirable.

Perhaps the advanyage that parents can both go out to gather a
living while the old grandparents mind them, or even the
greatgrandparents :)

>Must be environmental (or chaotic) effect.. Unless they are
>still living with their kids in which case there is an
>evolutionary effect via kid's fitness.
>
>Okay now I'm getting sucked into making evolutionary (poo
>poo) arguments.

[John De Ho]

Tim Tyler wrote...

> : OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in general,
> : is there
> evidence
> : that some populations are genetically suited to certain
> : diets? Are
> Italians
> : suited to pasta, or Irish to potatoes? (I think not.)
>
> E.g. see: "Lactase Haplotype Diversity in the Old World"
>
> http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n1/-
> 002187/002187.html

Yes, of course. There are individual foods that some people
tolerate and others don't.

However, I think it's a mistake to think of Okinawa as a place
where the population has adapted genetically to an indigenous
diet over many centuries. For one thing, their diet is not
entirely indigenous. Take konbu, for example. Okinawans eat
more of this seaweed than anyone else, yet they can't get it
locally. Instead they have to import it all the way from
Hokkaido, the northernmost part of Japan.

Many people develop diets that we tend to think of as
indigenous, but which include key elements not even found
locally. The Koreans, for example, are famous for eating
kimchee in large quantities, but the red peppers that make it
so fiery hot were imported into Korea rather recently. And
Europeans developed a taste for dishes that depended on spices
shipped from far-off islands. The Australians are among the
healthiest people on earth, eating a diet that has been
imported from all over.

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[Mmo0$H]

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 03:36:47 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>Tim Tyler wrote...
>
>> : OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in
>> : general, is there
>> evidence
>> : that some populations are genetically suited to certain
>> : diets? Are
>> Italians
>> : suited to pasta, or Irish to potatoes? (I think not.)
>>
>> E.g. see: "Lactase Haplotype Diversity in the Old World"
>>
>> http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n1-
>> /002187/002187.html
>
>Yes, of course. There are individual foods that some people
>tolerate and others don't.
>
>However, I think it's a mistake to think of Okinawa as a
>place where the population has adapted genetically to an
>indigenous diet over many centuries. For one thing, their
>diet is not entirely indigenous. Take konbu, for example.
>Okinawans eat more of this seaweed than anyone else, yet they
>can't get it locally. Instead they have to import it all the
>way from Hokkaido, the northernmost part of Japan.

Did they historically eat seaweed of any kind in Okinawa?

>Many people develop diets that we tend to think of as
>indigenous, but which include key elements not even found
>locally. The Koreans, for example, are famous for eating
>kimchee in large quantities, but the red peppers that make it
>so fiery hot were imported into Korea rather recently. And
>Europeans developed a taste for dishes that depended on
>spices shipped from far-off islands. The Australians are
>among the healthiest people on earth, eating a diet that has
>been imported from all over.

Umm, I thing you overestimate the health of Australians.

I wonder if the Koreans ate something equally hot before
they imported kimchee. Do you think this has some sort of
health benefit?

I just thought is a reasonable hypothesis that the two famous
longevity front runners, who have both lived on tiny islands
for centuries might have benefitted from relative isolation
and an indigenous way of life eating simple foods that
supplied all the nutrients, and working very hard.

[Tim Tyler]

In sci.life-extension John de Hoog <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:
: Tim Tyler wrote...
:> In sci.life-extension John de Hoog
:> <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

:> : OK. But is there any evidence of that? I mean, in
:> : general, is there evidence that some populations are
:> : genetically suited to certain diets? Are Italians suited
:> : to pasta, or Irish to potatoes? (I think mnot.)
:>
:> E.g. see: "Lactase Haplotype Diversity in the Old World"
:>
:> http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n1-
:> /002187/002187.html

: Yes, of course. There are individual foods that some people
: tolerate and others don't.

...and there are currently genetic differences in these traits
oriented along geographic lines.

No doubt such differences are at their most severe in the case
of relatively isolated islands.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1.org

[Frank Roy]

Mike Leake wrote:

> Extensive blood workups every couple of years reveal a
> fasting blood glucose for me around 80, so pre-diabetes
> seems a very remote possibility.

Your blood glucose is very normal. In fact you would
probably have an HbA1c reading of about 4.4%. The upper end
of normal is about 6% depending on the lab. A 5% reading
would be about 90.

Frank

[Mo0$H]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 14:55:42 -0600, "Mike Leake"
<maleake@aol.com> wrote:

>"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
>news:20030704225341.611$Wg@news.newsreader.com...
>> The people of Okinawa and the other islands in the Ryukyu
>> chain came originally from other parts of Asia and the
>> Pacific. But this whole notion of being genetically suited
>> to certain types of diet is suspect. Even monkeys and crows
>> can adapt quickly to wherever they happen to be. Human
>> beings are no different.
>
>I've often wondered about this issue of genetic suitability
>to diet. While I have no concrete proof, I'm inclined to
>think there may be something to it when basic elements of the
>diet have been in place for many centuries or even for
>thousands of years.
>
>My girlfriend is originally from South Korea. Whenever we eat
>Asian cuisine together, I'm astonished at the volume of rice
>she consumes at a sitting. Yet she seems to fare well on it.
>I, on the other hand, being mostly of Scotch-Irish ancestry
>with a little German tossed in, find I can only eat perhaps
>10-15% that volume of rice. If I consume more, my whole
>physiology feels out of kilter, like an engine running one
>cylinder short or operating on entirely the wrong kind of
>fuel. I feel sleepy, uncharacteristically irritable and
>mentally sluggish.
>
>Extensive blood workups every couple of years reveal a
>fasting blood glucose for me around 80, so pre-diabetes seems
>a very remote possibility. Ordinarily I'm mentally alert and
>have quite a bit of energy. I've concluded over the years
>that my physiology just isn't suited to that type of diet.
>Hers, possibly through inherited genetic adaptation, just
>might be.
>
>I have little doubt that the human body can adapt to a wide
>variety of diets in order to survive. I'm sure that I could
>learn to adapt and survive on a much higher volume of rice
>(or other high carbohydrate) diet. But what's optimal for any
>one person--as opposed to what is workable--may well be
>influenced by genetics.

Are you overweight, and what does your blood insulin do in a
GTT?

[John De Ho]

MMO0$H wrote...

> Umm, I thing you overestimate the health of Australians.

A recent survey of *healthy longevity* (defined as the number
of years of non-disabled life expectancy, or life expectancy
ruling out bedridden infirmity) placed Japan first and
Australia a close second.

>
> I wonder if the Koreans ate something equally hot before
> they imported kimchee. Do you think this has some sort of
> health benefit?

It gives them the highest stomach cancer rate in the
world, so no.

> I just thought is a reasonable hypothesis that the two
> famous longevity front runners, who have both lived on tiny
> islands for centuries might have benefitted from relative
> isolation and an indigenous way of life eating simple foods
> that supplied all the nutrients, and working very hard.

Japan today has the highest life expectancy ever, but imports
much of its food. The typical Japanese diet is a mix of foods
from all over. Neither Japan as a whole nor Okinawa should be
seen as isolated.

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[Mmo0$H]

On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:06:04 -0400, Frank Roy
<froy@erols.com> wrote:

>
>
>Mike Leake wrote:
>
>> Extensive blood workups every couple of years reveal a
>> fasting blood glucose for me around 80, so pre-diabetes
>> seems a very remote possibility.
>
>Your blood glucose is very normal. In fact you would
>probably have an HbA1c reading of about 4.4%. The upper end
>of normal is about 6% depending on the lab. A 5% reading
>would be about 90.

Huh? There is no direct connection between FBG and HbA1c.

[Mmo0$H]

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 04:59:30 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>MMO0$H wrote...
>
>> Umm, I thing you overestimate the health of Australians.
>
>A recent survey of *healthy longevity* (defined as the number
>of years of non-disabled life expectancy, or life expectancy
>ruling out bedridden infirmity) placed Japan first and
>Australia a close second.

Really. I've not seen one saying that. I thought we were
further down the list. We are very much like USA without the
poverty. There is a social security safety net, and everyone
has universal health insurance.

>> I wonder if the Koreans ate something equally hot before
>> they imported kimchee. Do you think this has some sort of
>> health benefit?
>
>It gives them the highest stomach cancer rate in the
>world, so no.

Struth!. There's another group who has this problem from some
preservative process. I don't think it is Chinese preserving
cabbage, I think that causes liver cancer. Can't remember. I
wonder if Southern Indians with their hot foods have a
similarly increased incidence of stomach cancer. There are
some groups in Indonesia who live right next to each other and
one group will have incredibly hot food, and the other group
very mild. A good area for some epidemiology :)

>> I just thought is a reasonable hypothesis that the two
>> famous longevity front runners, who have both lived on tiny
>> islands for centuries might have benefitted from relative
>> isolation and an indigenous way of life eating simple foods
>> that supplied all the nutrients, and working very hard.
>
>Japan today has the highest life expectancy ever, but imports
>much of its food. The typical Japanese diet is a mix of foods
>from all over. Neither Japan as a whole nor Okinawa should be
>seen as isolated.

Not today, for sure. I was just postulating about the last
dozen centuries or so. We had a bright spark here a while ago
who attributed the longevity of Okinawans to the "coral
calcium" in their water supply, and this also led to the
longevity of Thais, coz the two countries were close and
shared the same water supply :)

[Philip J .]

In article <swGdnWbQjPawppqiXTWJhQ@comcast.com>,
maleake@aol.com (Mike Leake) writes...
> "John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
> news:20030704225341.611$Wg@news.newsreader.com...
> > The people of Okinawa and the other islands in the Ryukyu
> > chain came originally from other parts of Asia and the
> > Pacific. But this whole notion of being genetically suited
> > to certain types of diet is suspect. Even monkeys and
> > crows can adapt quickly to wherever they happen to be.
> > Human beings are no different.
>
> I've often wondered about this issue of genetic suitability
> to diet. While I have no concrete proof, I'm inclined to
> think there may be something to it when basic elements of
> the diet have been in place for many centuries or even for
> thousands of years.
>
> My girlfriend is originally from South Korea. Whenever we
> eat Asian cuisine together, I'm astonished at the volume of
> rice she consumes at a sitting. Yet she seems to fare well
> on it. I, on the other hand, being mostly of Scotch-Irish
> ancestry with a little German tossed in, find I can only eat
> perhaps 10-15% that volume of rice. If I consume more, my
> whole physiology feels out of kilter, like an engine running
> one cylinder short or operating on entirely the wrong kind
> of fuel. I feel sleepy, uncharacteristically irritable and
> mentally sluggish.
>
> Extensive blood workups every couple of years reveal a
> fasting blood glucose for me around 80, so pre-diabetes
> seems a very remote possibility. Ordinarily I'm mentally
> alert and have quite a bit of energy. I've concluded over
> the years that my physiology just isn't suited to that type
> of diet. Hers, possibly through inherited genetic
> adaptation, just might be.
>
> I have little doubt that the human body can adapt to a wide
> variety of diets in order to survive. I'm sure that I could
> learn to adapt and survive on a much higher volume of rice
> (or other high carbohydrate) diet. But what's optimal for
> any one person--as opposed to what is workable--may well be
> influenced by genetics.

First of all, I am not a nutrition expert.

However I thought it was a well-established medical fact that
many asian ethnic groups were more adapted to a diet of rice
precisely as you described. I distinctly recall reading
several times credible articles about this.

It may not be "politically correct" to enumerate ethnic
differences in physiology to a layperson-audience, but there
clearly are some important differences, the above being one of
the most well- established ones, I was led to believe.

--
* If you listen to cockpit voice recorders from fly-by-wire
aircraft that *
* are about to crash, then what you tend to hear is the same
sort of things *
* that people say to their PCs. "How do you stop it doing
that? What did *
* we do last time it did that?" *
* -- Ian Utting *
*
*
* To send email, remove numbers and spaces: pjkusenet64 @
ekahuna27 . com *
* Simple answers are for simple minds. Try a new way of
looking at things. *

[Alf Christ]

On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 13:19:35 GMT, M00SH <noll@noll.noll>
wrote:

>I can see why everyone else seems that way to you, GOHDE.
>
>You have my condolences, you IDIOT GOHDE!

Mr. Gohde recognize only one country in the world. USA. And he
wants all non-US citizens, like you, John and me, to go
somewhere else.

[Alf Christ]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 00:30:13 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>There is also plenty of evidence that Japanese who move to
>America, for example, when they adopt a "typical" American
>diet, suffer the same problems (increased diabetes, weight
>gain, large buttocks) as other Americans.

And also rate and deadliness of heart attacks etc.

[Alf Christ]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 02:03:38 +0100, "Mark D."
<smoothie@notavirgin.net> wrote:

>Dunno who would have thought of *looking* for this evidence -
>apart from you and me! And I don't think the *genomics* of it
>could even have been contemplated before this present
>century. But your Italian and Irish examples are significant
>for me: I don't know about Italian dietary history, but I
>*do* know that the Irish haven't had *time* to evolve to suit
>a potato-rich diet. Whereas isolated, stable Okinawan society
>has had *ages* to get adapted to what it eats!!

Most icelandics descends from the same genetic pool as
Norwegians, still the death rates of heart diseases are very
different, and diet also are quite different. Icelanders eat
far more mutton from sheep grazing the whole year around,
while fish intake is not that significant different in some
areas of Norway where fish is mostly consumed, while still
having one of the highest rates of death by heart diseases.
Lead or cadmium exposition from water tanks in fishing boats
and from cigarette smoking (cadmium) has been proposed, but
more recently, high MUFA and omega-3 intake plus far more
antioxidants in mutton meat from animals grazing whole year
are among the favourites. Another factor may be differencies
in carbohydrate consumption.

[Blue Monk]

What you state was stated in "The Okinawa Program".

On 7/4/03 5:03 AM, in article
20030704050359.434$yR@news.newsreader.com, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

> Okinawa has long been looked to as a model for long, healthy
> life. Japan as a whole has the world's best longevity
> record, and Okinawa ranked at the top of all prefectures --
> until now.
>
> Today, Okinawa has fallen to 26th in Japan. The number one
> prefecture is Nagano (where the Winter Olympics were held
> in 1998).
>
> So what happened to Okinawa? Observers blame a drift away
> from the traditional diet, influenced by Western foods
> (Okinawa hosts US military bases), and by the increase in
> working mothers, who no longer have the time to prepare the
> traditional dishes or learn how to prepare them properly.
> (One girl who still likes goya champon -- the only one in
> her class -- says she likes it the way her grandmother cooks
> it better than her mother's version.)
>
> Of course the traditional Okinawa diet itself is still a
> good one. The drop in longevity as people move away from it
> is evidence of that.

[John De Ho]

N.S.D wrote...

> >The Irish ate potatoes because that's all they could think
> >to grow. (When potato blight struck, they died or left in
> >droves.)
>
> John,
>
> I know I'm going off topic for this thread, but I just can't
> let such a prejudiced and ignorant statement rest
> unchallenged. Take a brief look at almost any history of the
> Irish potato famine, and you'll find that "that's all they
> could think to grow" is offensive and mistaken. When Ireland
> was completely under the control of the British, they were
> forced to export all of the other vegetables and other crops
> to be exported to Britain - the potatoes were all they were
> left to eat, not by their own choice.

Naomi,

Thanks for that history lesson. My statement was facetious and
off the cuff, but your charge of "offensive and mistaken" is
justified. My apologies.

That said, do you have any information on why they grew
potatoes in their back yards rather than some other foods? And
to take this back on topic, given what we know today about
nutrition and backyard agriculture, what should they have
grown instead?

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[Mike Leake]

"Frank Roy" <froy@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3F0767EC.10E72327@erols.com...
>
>
> Mike Leake wrote:
>
> > Extensive blood workups every couple of years reveal a
> > fasting blood
glucose
> > for me around 80, so pre-diabetes seems a very remote
> > possibility.
>
> Your blood glucose is very normal.
<snip...>

Yes, I definitely agree. I was making the point that I don't
appear to have any blood sugar problems or diabetic tendencies
based on consistently good fasting blood glucose levels. I
probably should have added "at best" to the end of my sentence
for clarity.

Mike Leake

[Mike Leake]

"MO0$H" <nill@nill.nill> wrote in message
news:hq4fgvk75q1df5grs273tljvoh8b3melv1@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 14:55:42 -0600, "Mike Leake"
> <maleake@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >"John de Hoog" <dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote in message
> >news:20030704225341.611$Wg@news.newsreader.com...
> >> The people of Okinawa and the other islands in the Ryukyu
> >> chain came originally from other parts of Asia and the
> >> Pacific. But this whole
notion
> >> of being genetically suited to certain types of diet is
> >> suspect. Even monkeys and crows can adapt quickly to
> >> wherever they happen to be.
Human
> >> beings are no different.
> >
> >I've often wondered about this issue of genetic suitability
> >to diet.
While I
> >have no concrete proof, I'm inclined to think there may be
> >something to
it
> >when basic elements of the diet have been in place for many
> >centuries or even for thousands of years.
> >
> >My girlfriend is originally from South Korea. Whenever we
> >eat Asian
cuisine
> >together, I'm astonished at the volume of rice she consumes
> >at a sitting. Yet she seems to fare well on it. I, on the
> >other hand, being mostly of Scotch-Irish ancestry with a
> >little German tossed in, find I can only eat perhaps 10-15%
> >that volume of rice. If I consume more, my whole
physiology
> >feels out of kilter, like an engine running one cylinder
> >short or
operating
> >on entirely the wrong kind of fuel. I feel sleepy,
> >uncharacteristically irritable and mentally sluggish.
> >
> >Extensive blood workups every couple of years reveal a
> >fasting blood
glucose
> >for me around 80, so pre-diabetes seems a very remote
> >possibility. Ordinarily I'm mentally alert and have quite a
> >bit of energy. I've
concluded
> >over the years that my physiology just isn't suited to that
> >type of diet. Hers, possibly through inherited genetic
> >adaptation, just might be.
> >
> >I have little doubt that the human body can adapt to a wide
> >variety of
diets
> >in order to survive. I'm sure that I could learn to adapt
> >and survive on
a
> >much higher volume of rice (or other high carbohydrate)
> >diet. But what's optimal for any one person--as opposed to
> >what is workable--may well be influenced by genetics.
>
> Are you overweight, and what does your blood insulin do
> in a GTT?

Not overweight at all. 5'-11" and 170 lbs. I haven't done a
glucose tolerance test, never seeing any particular need for
it. My fasting insulin is usually 6 uU/ml. Often 15 or higher
is considered a warning sign for insulin resistance. My health
is extremely good and the overall blood test results are
always unusually favorable.

Mike Leake

[Moosh:]]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 09:03:59 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>Okinawa has long been looked to as a model for long, healthy
>life. Japan as a whole has the world's best longevity
>record, and Okinawa ranked at the top of all prefectures --
>until now.
>
>Today, Okinawa has fallen to 26th in Japan. The number one
>prefecture is Nagano (where the Winter Olympics were held
>in 1998).
>
>So what happened to Okinawa? Observers blame a drift away
>from the traditional diet, influenced by Western foods
>(Okinawa hosts US military bases), and by the increase in
>working mothers, who no longer have the time to prepare the
>traditional dishes or learn how to prepare them properly.
>(One girl who still likes goya champon -- the only one in her
>class -- says she likes it the way her grandmother cooks it
>better than her mother's version.)
>
>Of course the traditional Okinawa diet itself is still a
>good one.

For whom? Okinawans, or anyone else?

>The drop in longevity as people move away from it is
>evidence of that.

But this only shows it is good for Okinawans. Has it been
shown to be good for anyone else? (Of course, you must control
for the eucaloricity of the diet and the heavy physical
activity of the traditional Okinawans -- Westerners only like
the easy bits, like adding a few trad Okinawan foods to their
overeating, couch-potato ways of life)

[John De Ho]

Moosh wrote...

> >Of course the traditional Okinawa diet itself is still a
> >good one.
>
> For whom? Okinawans, or anyone else?

Didn't we go around on this one already? Look at the whole
thread before jumping in, please.

--
John de Hoog http://dehoog.org

[Moosh:]]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 04:30:28 GMT, "John de Hoog"
<dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:

>Moosh wrote...
>
>> >Of course the traditional Okinawa diet itself is still a
>> >good one.
>>
>> For whom? Okinawans, or anyone else?
>
>Didn't we go around on this one already?

Yes, but with no satisfactory answer. My question was, thus,
rhetorical.

>Look at the whole thread before jumping in, please.

Patronising twit! You would do well to follow your own advice.

[Moosh:]]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 04:45:40 GMT, "Moosh:]"
<buggerall@nowt.zilch> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 04:30:28 GMT, "John de Hoog"
><dehoog@dehoog.org> wrote:
>
>>Moosh wrote...
>>
>>> >Of course the traditional Okinawa diet itself is still a
>>> >good one.
>>>
>>> For whom? Okinawans, or anyone else?
>>
>>Didn't we go around on this one already?
>
>Yes, but with no satisfactory answer. My question was, thus,
>rhetorical.
>
>>Look at the whole thread before jumping in, please.
>
>Patronising twit! You would do well to follow your own
>advice.

ps I note you ignored my question:

"Did they [Okinawans] historically eat seaweed of any kind
in Okinawa?"

Posed in response to your assertion that the seaweed they eat
now has to be imported.

[Moosh:]]

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:39:01 -0700, Philip J. Koenig
<See_email_@ddress_below.This_one_is.invalid> wrote:

>First of all, I am not a nutrition expert.
>
>However I thought it was a well-established medical fact that
>many asian ethnic groups were more adapted to a diet of rice
>precisely as you described. I distinctly recall reading
>several times credible articles about this.
>
>It may not be "politically correct" to enumerate ethnic
>differences in physiology to a layperson-audience, but there
>clearly are some important differences, the above being one
>of the most well- established ones, I was led to believe.

It used to be thought that Japanese would never be able to
speak English properly. Their palates were adapted to only
speaking Asian languages :)

[Tim Tyler]

In sci.life-extension Moosh:] <buggerall@nowt.zilch> wrote:
: On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:39:01 -0700, Philip J. Koenig

:>First of all, I am not a nutrition expert.
:>
:>However I thought it was a well-established medical fact
:>that many asian ethnic groups were more adapted to a diet of
:>rice precisely as you described. I distinctly recall reading
:>several times credible articles about this.
:>
:>It may not be "politically correct" to enumerate ethnic
:>differences in physiology to a layperson-audience, but there
:>clearly are some important differences, the above being one
:>of the most well- established ones, I was led to believe.

: It used to be thought that Japanese would never be able to
: speak English properly. Their palates were adapted to only
: speaking Asian languages :)

They do have real problems in that area - though most of
them are attributable to differences in nurture - rather
than nature.

For example, the hearing areas of their brains are different
from a young age - e.g.:

``While this is going on, there are also changes in what the
baby can perceive. As it begins to learn the phonemes of the
language, it begins to lose the ability to hear distinctions
that are not contrastive in that language. One well-known
example of this phenomenon is the distinction between [r] and
[l], a phonemic distinction in English, but not in Japanese,
Lingala, Inuktitut, or many other languages. For many speakers
of languages like these, the ability to hear the distinction
is lost.''

- http://www.indiana.edu/~hlw/PhonProcess/learning.html
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1.org

[Moosh:]]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 07:50:56 GMT, Tim Tyler
<tim@tt1.org> wrote:

>In sci.life-extension Moosh:] <buggerall@nowt.zilch> wrote:
>: On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:39:01 -0700, Philip J. Koenig
>
>:>First of all, I am not a nutrition expert.
>:>
>:>However I thought it was a well-established medical fact
>:>that many asian ethnic groups were more adapted to a diet
>:>of rice precisely as you described. I distinctly recall
>:>reading several times credible articles about this.
>:>
>:>It may not be "politically correct" to enumerate ethnic
>:>differences in physiology to a layperson-audience, but
>:>there clearly are some important differences, the above
>:>being one of the most well- established ones, I was led to
>:>believe.
>
>: It used to be thought that Japanese would never be able to
>: speak English properly. Their palates were adapted to only
>: speaking Asian languages :)
>
>They do have real problems in that area - though most of
>them are attributable to differences in nurture - rather
>than nature.

Just like any other humans wrt learning any other language.
Even more problematic is a native speaker of a relatively
non-tonal language like English trying to learn a tonal
language like Thai. Frinstance, "Mai mai mai mai mai" with the
correct tones can mean "New would won't burn will it"

>For example, the hearing areas of their brains are different
>from a young age - e.g.:
>
>``While this is going on, there are also changes in what the
>baby can perceive. As it begins to learn the phonemes of the
>language, it begins to lose the ability to hear distinctions
>that are not contrastive in that language. One well-known
>example of this phenomenon is the distinction between [r] and
>[l], a phonemic distinction in English, but not in Japanese,
>Lingala, Inuktitut, or many other languages. For many
>speakers of languages like these, the ability to hear the
>distinction is lost.''
>
> - http://www.indiana.edu/~hlw/PhonProcess/learning.html

Of course this is the same explanation for why Spaniards can't
differentiate between English "sheep" and "ship".

The ability to learn new things drops off with age. Hence the
expression about old dogs and new tricks :)

[Alf Christ]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:45:11 GMT, "Moosh:]"
<buggerall@nowt.zilch> wrote:

>Of course this is the same explanation for why Spaniards
>can't differentiate between English "sheep" and "ship".

Here in Norway we have gotten a new problem, the distinction
btw. the sound of pronouncing 'kj', 'skj' and 'tj', like in
'kjære' (dear) and 'skjære' (to cut) and 'tjære' (tarry). It
is funny to hear somebody utter 'skjære mor' (cut mother (into
what) ) when they really meant to say 'kjære mor' (dear
mother) :-)