Nick
Sat, Jul-05-03, 18:20
Mike: I've posted so many studies here - I don't know what
more you want. I keep finding more, every day. I eat DHA
enhanced eggs, a few raw nuts now and then, and even the
coconut oil has 2% PUFA. However, most Americans are eating
ridiculously large amounts of it. When I first heard that
PUFAs might be dangerous and that saturated fatty acids
might be fine, I couldn't believe it - thought it was
quackery of the highest order. But I was trained as a
researcher, so I did the "dog work," and to my surprise I
found that when you get to the "cause" of various
conditions, you realize that it is either oxidative stress,
lipid peroxidation, or free radical damage - and the only
thing in the diet that can do such damage is unsaturated
fatty acids, though a high iron diet doesn't help (and
there are a few other things like that as well). I read the
studies of people eating huge amounts of saturated fatty
acids as dietary staples with virtually no chronic disease,
but when I read the studies that supposedly "proved" that
saturated fats are "bad" I realized that they made a key
mistake (actually several), assuming that saturated fatty
acids were doing the damage when in fact it is arachidonic
acid (a PUFA). I continued to read studies, as well as
scientific text books and other sources, and it was quite
clear that there are forces at work that do not allow these
points to make it to the general public. Mary Enig points
out, for example, that some publishers will not publish a
book on nutrition/diet unless the author mentions canola
oil as a source of "monounsaturated fat" whenever olive oil
is mentioned. I read respected journalist Thomas More's
account of what really goes on in the pharaceutical
industry - they want to sell you drugs as "therapies" -
they don't want to cure anything. There is an "old boy's
network" involed on corporate boards, at institutions like
the AHA and NHLBI, etc. as well as at major university
hospitals. As far as the "evolutionary argument," I
addressed that many times here. Eskimos on a mostly fish
diet rarely lived beyond the age of 40, if they were lucky.
Otherwise, there was little in the way of modern processed
foods, which often have rancid fats in them, ready to
explode into a free radical attack inside your body once
the preservatives in the packaging is no longer present. Do
you ever take food home from restaurants? It can start to
smell rancid in an hour or so inside your refrigerator.
Think about what is going on in your body, which is much
warmer - free radicals galore. In the past, diets were much
rich in antioxidants, and few peoples used PUFA as oils,
but rather ate a few nuts. Notice that coconut tastes
great, along with fruit, but that fish tastes bad - that's
evolution telling you something. Since going on a very low
unsaturated fat diet, I feel better, cuts heal very quickly
with no inflammation, no energy or hunger problems, etc.
Have you read "Saturated Fat May Save Your Life?" I don't
agree with all of it - I've read more studies and know a
bit more about specific issues, but in general it's on the
right track. Have you read any of biochemist Ray Peat's
newsletters - and he's not the only scientist who is making
similar arguments. Lastly, I'm going with the biochemistry
first and foremost. I've seen too many good studies about
how dangerous unsaturated fatty acids can be (as well as
the similar substance, oxidized cholesterol) in different
contexts. I've posted most of them here. If you choose to
go a different path, fine, but I want those who come here
seeking alternative opinions to realize that the science is
there, just read scientific journals such as Free Radical
Biology and Medicine or Free Radical Research, though
plenty of similar articles appear in many other journals
all the time. In fact, there is a recent story about the
stress that caregivers of seriously ill relatives endure.
And you know what happens? IL-6 levels go up. On a very low
PUFA diet, there is not enough AA to do this, as Mead acids
replace the AA and this stressor can never come into
existence in the first place. Did you know this? I think
you might want to learn some biochemistry and then think
about the implications of avoiding all but a tiny amount of
PUFAs each day.
P.S. Most of the biochemistry textbooks have absurd
statements in them. Look for the sources - they either
don't have any or they are studies that are awful, but
if you think about it, if PUFAs were "essential" in any
meaningful sense of the word, Americans would be
dropping like flies because so many eat almost no omega
3 PUFAs and way too much omega 6s. Read Gilbert Ling's
"Life at the cell and below-cell level" if you want to
know what is really going on. I think you are at a place
that I was about 3 years ago. I hope you open your mind
and piece this puzzle together. Below is what saturated
fat basher Scott Grundy has to say about PUFAs -exactly
what I am saying, though the media always attacks
saturated fat, and call PUFAs "good" - a relative of
mine showed me the recent Good Housekeeping magazine,
which touted unsaturated fats as the "good fats."
"MSNBC ... Aug 17, 1997 "You can get just as fat eating
carbohydrates such as pasta and potatoes as you can eating
fat," says Dr. Scott Grundy of the Center for Human Nutrition.
While Americans are heeding public health messages to reduce
fat in their diets, replacing high-fat foods with
carbohydrates can be just as harmful to your health as too
much fat. "Diets with carbohydrates as the main source of
calories can have bad effects on any of a number of
heart-disease risk factors," said Dr. Scott Grundy, director
of the Center for Human Nutrition at the University of Texas
Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. He said one of the
biggest misconceptions is that by lowering fat in your diet,
you will lower your cholesterol. You can lower cholesterol
only if you reduce saturated fats found in such foods as meat,
whole milk, palm oil and coconut oil. "It's a myth that if you
replace fat with carbohydrates, you can increase portion sizes
without doing any harm. You can get just as fat eating
carbohydrates such as pasta and potatoes as you can eating
fat," said Grundy. Martha Hill, president of the America Heart
Association, reports overall fat intake has gone down in
America, while overall carbohydrate intake has increased, and
we're still getting fatter. In fact, more than one in three
adults and more than one in eight teens and children are
overweight...an all-time high, according to the Centers for
Disease Control. The CDC finds the average American is
consuming 200 more calories per day than four years ago.
Excess carbohydrates raise fatty substances in the blood
called triglycerides; lower HDL, or good cholesterol; promote
hardening of the arteries, and leave you susceptible to
diabetes. So what should we be eating? The best example of a
diet that works is the so-called Mediterranean diet. Grundy
says, "With olive oil as its source of dietary fat, the diet
has been shown to reduce the risks of both heart disease and
cancer, while increasing life expectancy. Spread oil on your
bread instead of butter. The Mediterraneans also tend to have
a glass of wine rather than whole milk with their meal.
Overall, aim for a diet in which no more than 30 percent of
your total calories come from fat, but only 7 percent of total
calories from saturated fats and polyunsaturated fat, such as
corn, soybean and sunflower oils. That means 16 percent from
monounsaturated fats such as olive oil and canola oil. For
many years it was thought that the antidote to saturated fats
was polyunsaturated oil. But it's now believed that
polyunsaturated fat is susceptible to the oxidation process,
combining with oxygen to cause unstable molecules called free
radicals in the body that can damage DNA and predispose people
to heart disease, cancer and Alzheimer's disease Only 15
percent of your total calories should come from protein, with
fish and skinless chicken the best source, according to
Grundy. The remaining 55 percent of calories should come from
carbohydrates - but no more than half of these should be
bread, potatoes, rice and pasta, he said.So where would you
get the rest? From fruits and veggies, of course. Most
Americans are confused, don't realize that high-fiber fruits
and vegetables are carbohydrates, Grundy said. To work, public
health messages are going to have to separate out fruits and
vegetables from other carbohydrates.
http://www.uslink.net/~golden/n-aug17.html"
Mike posted:
"I fear that extreme PUFA deprivation may have caused
obsession. (at least in Nick's case)
Many of us understand the the dangers of oxidative stress
through dietary excesses of certain nutrients or high
temperature processing and the like. Even exercise causes
oxidative stress. Most of us have an understanding
From my viewpoint it is MUCH more likely that humanity
survived thousands of years of hunter-gatherer evolution
learning to USE the benefits of PUFA in naturally available
amounts, (along with naturally available antioxidants) than
that we survived in spite of the POISON of PUFA.
For anyone interested in a broader view, an up to date review
of PUFA essentiality and metabolic FUNCTION is available at:
http://www.st-hs.com/TMA_Forum/PUFA%20-%20Calvani%20Benatti%2-
0-%20Feb%202K3. pdf Be warned: it is long. 56 pages (last 12
are study references)
MikeV
Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids (PUFA). CALVANI M. AND BENATTI P.
Introduction Dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) have
effects on diverse physiological processes impacting normal
health and chronic disease, such as the regulation of plasma
lipid levels, cardiovascular and immune function, insulin
action, and neuronal development and visual function.
Ingestion of PUFA will lead to their distribution to
virtually every cell in the body with effects on membrane
composition and function, eicosanoid synthesis, and
SIGNALLING as well as the regulation of gene expression. Cell
specific lipid metabolism, as well as the expression of fatty
acid-regulated transcription factors likely play an important
role in determining how cells respond to changes in PUFA
composition. This review will focus on recent advances on the
essentiality of these substances and on their interplay with
cell physiology leading to new perspective in different
therapeutic fields.
INDEX
Glossary 3
1. Introduction 4
2. Chemistry 4
3. Source of PUFA 5
4. Evolutionary aspects of diet 6
5.1 Recommended intakes of PUFA 7
6.2 Potency of different types of PUFA 8
7. Metabolism of PUFA 8
8. Biological and functional effects of PUFA 11
9.1 Essentiality 11
10.2 Eicosanoid metabolism 11
11.3 Gene expression 14
12. Factors affecting PUFA status 18
13. PUFA in chronic diseases 21
14.1 Cardiovascular diseases 21
14.1.1 Antiarrhythmic effects 21
14.2.2 Hypolipidemic effects 23
14.3.3 Antithrombotic effects 23
14.4.4 Prevention of restenosis 24
14.5.5 Hypotensive effects 24
15.2 Diabetes 24
16.3 Anti-inflammatory effects 26
17.4 Arthritis 27
18.5 Psoriasis 27
19.6 Ulcerative colitis 28
20.7 Cancer 28
20.1.1 PUFA effects on cell proliferation and signal
transduction 28
20.2.2 Experimental and clinical data 28
20.3.3 Effects of PUFA in cancer cachexia 31
21.8 The importance of PUFA in brain function 34
22. PUFA for bone growth and repair 34
23.1 Bone modeling and remodeling 34
24.2 Nutritional strategy for lowering PGE2 35
24.1.1 Experimental studies 35
24.2.2 Clinical studies 37
25.3 Mood and bone 38
26. PUFA as a physiologically-important nutrient during
pregnancy and fetal development 38
27. Drugs modulated by PUFA 40
28. Guidelines for the assessment of PUFA status 40 Appendix 1
41 Bibliography 44
Postscript: Nick, I respect the DEPTH of your arguments. I
simply request (challenge!) you to give us a careful and
balanced REFUTATION of the 'evolutionary' and 'functional'
arguments. Thanks."
more you want. I keep finding more, every day. I eat DHA
enhanced eggs, a few raw nuts now and then, and even the
coconut oil has 2% PUFA. However, most Americans are eating
ridiculously large amounts of it. When I first heard that
PUFAs might be dangerous and that saturated fatty acids
might be fine, I couldn't believe it - thought it was
quackery of the highest order. But I was trained as a
researcher, so I did the "dog work," and to my surprise I
found that when you get to the "cause" of various
conditions, you realize that it is either oxidative stress,
lipid peroxidation, or free radical damage - and the only
thing in the diet that can do such damage is unsaturated
fatty acids, though a high iron diet doesn't help (and
there are a few other things like that as well). I read the
studies of people eating huge amounts of saturated fatty
acids as dietary staples with virtually no chronic disease,
but when I read the studies that supposedly "proved" that
saturated fats are "bad" I realized that they made a key
mistake (actually several), assuming that saturated fatty
acids were doing the damage when in fact it is arachidonic
acid (a PUFA). I continued to read studies, as well as
scientific text books and other sources, and it was quite
clear that there are forces at work that do not allow these
points to make it to the general public. Mary Enig points
out, for example, that some publishers will not publish a
book on nutrition/diet unless the author mentions canola
oil as a source of "monounsaturated fat" whenever olive oil
is mentioned. I read respected journalist Thomas More's
account of what really goes on in the pharaceutical
industry - they want to sell you drugs as "therapies" -
they don't want to cure anything. There is an "old boy's
network" involed on corporate boards, at institutions like
the AHA and NHLBI, etc. as well as at major university
hospitals. As far as the "evolutionary argument," I
addressed that many times here. Eskimos on a mostly fish
diet rarely lived beyond the age of 40, if they were lucky.
Otherwise, there was little in the way of modern processed
foods, which often have rancid fats in them, ready to
explode into a free radical attack inside your body once
the preservatives in the packaging is no longer present. Do
you ever take food home from restaurants? It can start to
smell rancid in an hour or so inside your refrigerator.
Think about what is going on in your body, which is much
warmer - free radicals galore. In the past, diets were much
rich in antioxidants, and few peoples used PUFA as oils,
but rather ate a few nuts. Notice that coconut tastes
great, along with fruit, but that fish tastes bad - that's
evolution telling you something. Since going on a very low
unsaturated fat diet, I feel better, cuts heal very quickly
with no inflammation, no energy or hunger problems, etc.
Have you read "Saturated Fat May Save Your Life?" I don't
agree with all of it - I've read more studies and know a
bit more about specific issues, but in general it's on the
right track. Have you read any of biochemist Ray Peat's
newsletters - and he's not the only scientist who is making
similar arguments. Lastly, I'm going with the biochemistry
first and foremost. I've seen too many good studies about
how dangerous unsaturated fatty acids can be (as well as
the similar substance, oxidized cholesterol) in different
contexts. I've posted most of them here. If you choose to
go a different path, fine, but I want those who come here
seeking alternative opinions to realize that the science is
there, just read scientific journals such as Free Radical
Biology and Medicine or Free Radical Research, though
plenty of similar articles appear in many other journals
all the time. In fact, there is a recent story about the
stress that caregivers of seriously ill relatives endure.
And you know what happens? IL-6 levels go up. On a very low
PUFA diet, there is not enough AA to do this, as Mead acids
replace the AA and this stressor can never come into
existence in the first place. Did you know this? I think
you might want to learn some biochemistry and then think
about the implications of avoiding all but a tiny amount of
PUFAs each day.
P.S. Most of the biochemistry textbooks have absurd
statements in them. Look for the sources - they either
don't have any or they are studies that are awful, but
if you think about it, if PUFAs were "essential" in any
meaningful sense of the word, Americans would be
dropping like flies because so many eat almost no omega
3 PUFAs and way too much omega 6s. Read Gilbert Ling's
"Life at the cell and below-cell level" if you want to
know what is really going on. I think you are at a place
that I was about 3 years ago. I hope you open your mind
and piece this puzzle together. Below is what saturated
fat basher Scott Grundy has to say about PUFAs -exactly
what I am saying, though the media always attacks
saturated fat, and call PUFAs "good" - a relative of
mine showed me the recent Good Housekeeping magazine,
which touted unsaturated fats as the "good fats."
"MSNBC ... Aug 17, 1997 "You can get just as fat eating
carbohydrates such as pasta and potatoes as you can eating
fat," says Dr. Scott Grundy of the Center for Human Nutrition.
While Americans are heeding public health messages to reduce
fat in their diets, replacing high-fat foods with
carbohydrates can be just as harmful to your health as too
much fat. "Diets with carbohydrates as the main source of
calories can have bad effects on any of a number of
heart-disease risk factors," said Dr. Scott Grundy, director
of the Center for Human Nutrition at the University of Texas
Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. He said one of the
biggest misconceptions is that by lowering fat in your diet,
you will lower your cholesterol. You can lower cholesterol
only if you reduce saturated fats found in such foods as meat,
whole milk, palm oil and coconut oil. "It's a myth that if you
replace fat with carbohydrates, you can increase portion sizes
without doing any harm. You can get just as fat eating
carbohydrates such as pasta and potatoes as you can eating
fat," said Grundy. Martha Hill, president of the America Heart
Association, reports overall fat intake has gone down in
America, while overall carbohydrate intake has increased, and
we're still getting fatter. In fact, more than one in three
adults and more than one in eight teens and children are
overweight...an all-time high, according to the Centers for
Disease Control. The CDC finds the average American is
consuming 200 more calories per day than four years ago.
Excess carbohydrates raise fatty substances in the blood
called triglycerides; lower HDL, or good cholesterol; promote
hardening of the arteries, and leave you susceptible to
diabetes. So what should we be eating? The best example of a
diet that works is the so-called Mediterranean diet. Grundy
says, "With olive oil as its source of dietary fat, the diet
has been shown to reduce the risks of both heart disease and
cancer, while increasing life expectancy. Spread oil on your
bread instead of butter. The Mediterraneans also tend to have
a glass of wine rather than whole milk with their meal.
Overall, aim for a diet in which no more than 30 percent of
your total calories come from fat, but only 7 percent of total
calories from saturated fats and polyunsaturated fat, such as
corn, soybean and sunflower oils. That means 16 percent from
monounsaturated fats such as olive oil and canola oil. For
many years it was thought that the antidote to saturated fats
was polyunsaturated oil. But it's now believed that
polyunsaturated fat is susceptible to the oxidation process,
combining with oxygen to cause unstable molecules called free
radicals in the body that can damage DNA and predispose people
to heart disease, cancer and Alzheimer's disease Only 15
percent of your total calories should come from protein, with
fish and skinless chicken the best source, according to
Grundy. The remaining 55 percent of calories should come from
carbohydrates - but no more than half of these should be
bread, potatoes, rice and pasta, he said.So where would you
get the rest? From fruits and veggies, of course. Most
Americans are confused, don't realize that high-fiber fruits
and vegetables are carbohydrates, Grundy said. To work, public
health messages are going to have to separate out fruits and
vegetables from other carbohydrates.
http://www.uslink.net/~golden/n-aug17.html"
Mike posted:
"I fear that extreme PUFA deprivation may have caused
obsession. (at least in Nick's case)
Many of us understand the the dangers of oxidative stress
through dietary excesses of certain nutrients or high
temperature processing and the like. Even exercise causes
oxidative stress. Most of us have an understanding
From my viewpoint it is MUCH more likely that humanity
survived thousands of years of hunter-gatherer evolution
learning to USE the benefits of PUFA in naturally available
amounts, (along with naturally available antioxidants) than
that we survived in spite of the POISON of PUFA.
For anyone interested in a broader view, an up to date review
of PUFA essentiality and metabolic FUNCTION is available at:
http://www.st-hs.com/TMA_Forum/PUFA%20-%20Calvani%20Benatti%2-
0-%20Feb%202K3. pdf Be warned: it is long. 56 pages (last 12
are study references)
MikeV
Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids (PUFA). CALVANI M. AND BENATTI P.
Introduction Dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) have
effects on diverse physiological processes impacting normal
health and chronic disease, such as the regulation of plasma
lipid levels, cardiovascular and immune function, insulin
action, and neuronal development and visual function.
Ingestion of PUFA will lead to their distribution to
virtually every cell in the body with effects on membrane
composition and function, eicosanoid synthesis, and
SIGNALLING as well as the regulation of gene expression. Cell
specific lipid metabolism, as well as the expression of fatty
acid-regulated transcription factors likely play an important
role in determining how cells respond to changes in PUFA
composition. This review will focus on recent advances on the
essentiality of these substances and on their interplay with
cell physiology leading to new perspective in different
therapeutic fields.
INDEX
Glossary 3
1. Introduction 4
2. Chemistry 4
3. Source of PUFA 5
4. Evolutionary aspects of diet 6
5.1 Recommended intakes of PUFA 7
6.2 Potency of different types of PUFA 8
7. Metabolism of PUFA 8
8. Biological and functional effects of PUFA 11
9.1 Essentiality 11
10.2 Eicosanoid metabolism 11
11.3 Gene expression 14
12. Factors affecting PUFA status 18
13. PUFA in chronic diseases 21
14.1 Cardiovascular diseases 21
14.1.1 Antiarrhythmic effects 21
14.2.2 Hypolipidemic effects 23
14.3.3 Antithrombotic effects 23
14.4.4 Prevention of restenosis 24
14.5.5 Hypotensive effects 24
15.2 Diabetes 24
16.3 Anti-inflammatory effects 26
17.4 Arthritis 27
18.5 Psoriasis 27
19.6 Ulcerative colitis 28
20.7 Cancer 28
20.1.1 PUFA effects on cell proliferation and signal
transduction 28
20.2.2 Experimental and clinical data 28
20.3.3 Effects of PUFA in cancer cachexia 31
21.8 The importance of PUFA in brain function 34
22. PUFA for bone growth and repair 34
23.1 Bone modeling and remodeling 34
24.2 Nutritional strategy for lowering PGE2 35
24.1.1 Experimental studies 35
24.2.2 Clinical studies 37
25.3 Mood and bone 38
26. PUFA as a physiologically-important nutrient during
pregnancy and fetal development 38
27. Drugs modulated by PUFA 40
28. Guidelines for the assessment of PUFA status 40 Appendix 1
41 Bibliography 44
Postscript: Nick, I respect the DEPTH of your arguments. I
simply request (challenge!) you to give us a careful and
balanced REFUTATION of the 'evolutionary' and 'functional'
arguments. Thanks."